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Topic: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed? (Read 6557 times) previous topic - next topic
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Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Subject length limit. Question is, are there music stores that offer lossless files for download (not talking about silver discs nor streaming services), and where you can get it in a lossless compressed format - but not in FLAC?

IOW, is FLAC closing so much in on total dominance that if it is offered lossless, then FLAC is an option unless the only option is uncompressed (like Beatport)?
Even in just a resolution where you have to choose another (compressed) format?
(An example the other way around, is Qobuz which cap their WMAL support at CDDA, but apparently supply FLAC and ALAC at all resolutions they offer.)
I'd be surprised if there isn't a single store around offering DTS-compressed DSD-file for sale, that is losslessly compressed and obviously not available as FLAC. But others?

It makes for a facepalm when >8 channel files are delivered as WAVE only, sometimes even one file per channel ;  after all there are compressed format that handle a higher channel count, WavPack has done so since ages, and then there are containers.
(But no "corporate codecs", right?  Both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-MA are capped at eight channels, like FLAC?)

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #1
When you've got lossless you can reencode it however you want. What's the issue exactly?

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #2
Do zip'ed wavs count as lossless compressed? :-) Then I got that from some band's own shop, iirc. Possibly Heavy Weighs the King.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #3
Do zip'ed wavs count as lossless compressed? :-)

Haha-ha-hardly! :-D

But yes, .zip is the way to get it into a single file.


When you've got lossless you can reencode it however you want. What's the issue exactly?

Not an issue. A question. About FLAC's market position.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #4
Is the latest renewed fad (ambisonics) not being embraced by some fad-following exploitative sellers?
If no, is it because customers wouldn't understand it?
Or is it because it's too hard to setup/make us of?
Or is the binaural market too big to throw away?

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #5
When I was editing https://xiph.org/flac/links.html about a year ago, looking for such stores, I think I stumbled upon a few record labels that only offered Apple Lossless. I don't remember which though, and maybe they have changed in the meantime.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #6
Quote
About FLAC's market position.

Pardon?
An open source format not owned by anybody has become a standard?
Why should I worry?

Glad it is FLAC, not MQA.
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #7
Why should I worry?
I don't know. Why do you ask the question? I don't think anyone said or implied that you should.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #8
TAK only
Please remove my account from this forum.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #9
Tried with Qobuz on 192 Khz album:
- flac
- alac
- wav
- aiff
(and also MP3 and AAC)

Same choice for 96KHz album and 44.1 KHz only album.

I also bought a 352KHz/32bit album once in a small label store: it was sent as wav files in a zip archive.

I know that the 2L label (classical) also has different exotic options for file delivery:
- MQA
- flac
- mp4 (?)
- mkv
- wav

(the DXD discrete channels WAV 7.1.4 immersive only costs 80€…)
https://shop.2l.no/collections/latest-releases/products/lyden-av-arktis?variant=41448957968567

Finally, I can also mention nativedsd.com which sells DSD (mostly upsampled) even if source file are PCM:
https://www.nativedsd.com/product/alpha1056-jri-reinvere-ship-of-fools/
Wavpack Hybrid: one encoder for all scenarios
WavPack -c4.5hx6 (44100Hz & 48000Hz) ≈ 390 kbps + correction file
WavPack -c4hx6 (96000Hz) ≈ 768 kbps + correction file
WavPack -h (SACD & DSD) ≈ 2400 kbps at 2.8224 MHz

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #10
Tried with Qobuz on 192 Khz album:
Qobuz claim to support those four you mention, but for CDDA also WMAL: https://help.qobuz.com/en/articles/10167-what-are-the-different-audio-formats-available-for-download

I know that the 2L label (classical) also has different exotic options for file delivery:
- MQA
- flac
- mp4 (?)
- mkv
- wav

(the DXD discrete channels WAV 7.1.4 immersive only costs 80€…)
https://shop.2l.no/collections/latest-releases/products/lyden-av-arktis?variant=41448957968567
Dolby Atmos TrueHD is something I don't know. If it is high-channel Atmos (5.1.4/7.1.4/9.1.4) encoded with TrueHD (= MLP), then in the very least they are losslessly compressing more channels than FLAC can handle.
https://shop.2l.no/en-us/collections/dolby-atmos-mp4-files/dolby-atmos-truehd-in-mkv

They deliver that in MKV, as dual stream. The MP4 version of that album seems to be more conventional Dolby Atmos.

If you want to pay $52 extra to get DXD-WAVE in place of that MKV, then maybe Mr. Lindberg will drink something better than Carlsberg for dinner.


Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #11
Last time i checked all >2ch music mostly was classic only.
Please remove my account from this forum.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #12
Last time i checked all >2ch music mostly was classic only.
Maybe what is released as audio-only. DVD and BluRay?

Since you mention TAK ... which needs a time capsule, but anyway: http://audiograaf.nl/losslesstest/revision%206/Average%20of%205.1%20surround%20sources.pdf
(The only that decorrelates more than channel pairs?)

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #13
Yes, audio only albums, not today movies.

TAK multichannel coding is really "State-of-Art" as far as speed/encoding ratio goes, go stole it and make better codec than FLAC/WavPack, its sorry state that even today >2ch (interest in lossless codecs) is not very popular.
Please remove my account from this forum.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #14
Last time i checked all >2ch music mostly was classic only.
Maybe what is released as audio-only. DVD and BluRay?

(But, are such releases to any extent offered as downloads?)


Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #16
fwiw as a data point, Bandcamp gives the option to download your purchases as FLAC, ALAC, WAV, or AIFF.  :)

 

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #17
Several vendors support some lossless option that isn't FLAC - either alongside FLAC or with no compressed lossless alternative. That wasn't the question, "it is well known" that there are such offers around.
I see ktf did some research on the actual question.

Honestly, I didn't intend this topic to be read as "this is a bad thing". Actually I am pleased to see that a free and open format has become dominant. I wonder what could have been if a couple of big players had been more successful - one thing is inferior formats, but then it is the scenario that control over the delivery format could make DRM-infestation much easier. Reminder that we still got a bit of intentional crippling in the market (looking at you, scamQA), we could easily have gotten worse.

Sure there are codecs with a multichannel support that FLAC doesn't offer in its own file format, and when 7.1.4 channel 352/24 in WAVE is a full CD-ROM per minute (isn't that closing in on Netflix' HD video?) there could be some savings up for grabs. Technically not too hard to implement, when there are both codecs and containers around.
But with lossless compression having become close-to-synonymous with FLAC except to the apple crowd who might think that "audio" is synonymous to "mp3 or m4a or wav or aif", I have a hunch that a vendor who tried to deliver high-channel files as WavPack would probably regret it after a few days of overworked customer support - even when a self-extracting format was available, just click it then! (Yes SFX was discontinued with WavPack 5, I don't know if anyone has really come to miss it.)

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #18
I've taken a look at my browser history from a year ago, but I can't seem to find any. I may well have mixed things up: I found some stores that only offered WAV, perhaps I misremembered.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #19
Looks like bluecoastmusic.com only offers wav if you want 16/44k download.
soundkeeperrecordings.com offers only wav and aif as downloads.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #20
Honestly, I didn't intend this topic to be read as "this is a bad thing". Actually I am pleased to see that a free and open format has become dominant. I wonder what could have been if a couple of big players had been more successful - one thing is inferior formats, but then it is the scenario that control over the delivery format could make DRM-infestation much easier. Reminder that we still got a bit of intentional crippling in the market (looking at you, scamQA), we could easily have gotten worse.

Sure there are codecs with a multichannel support that FLAC doesn't offer in its own file format, and when 7.1.4 channel 352/24 in WAVE is a full CD-ROM per minute (isn't that closing in on Netflix' HD video?) there could be some savings up for grabs. Technically not too hard to implement, when there are both codecs and containers around.
But with lossless compression having become close-to-synonymous with FLAC except to the apple crowd who might think that "audio" is synonymous to "mp3 or m4a or wav or aif", I have a hunch that a vendor who tried to deliver high-channel files as WavPack would probably regret it after a few days of overworked customer support - even when a self-extracting format was available, just click it then! (Yes SFX was discontinued with WavPack 5, I don't know if anyone has really come to miss it.)

I think that part of it is that FLAC as an open standard is natively decoded by some chipsets, in ways that WavPack isn't.  Only in the past 10 years or so have internet speeds been consistently fast enough for lossless audio to be feasible for the mainstream, and even then only a small percentage of the mainstream that really care or know about it.  Multichannel is an even smaller slice, when you taken into account those that have the equipment to make use of the capability.  It took time for FLAC to become the lossless standard from SHN, due to the obvious benefits; maybe it's just a bit down the road before the same can be said for multitrack audio.

Re: Lossless music stores (files!) not offering FLAC, but other lossless compressed?

Reply #21
Bandcamp offers Apple Lossless, WAV, and AIFF besides FLAC. But yeah, FLAC is so widespread that you have only an issue with it when you "stuck" in the Apple ecosystem, thankfully the ability to convert FLAC to ALAC and back exits.