Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

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Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

2023-04-04 12:35:48

Remastero's PGGB based resampler for Foobar2000
This is a free, resampler that uses the same resampling and noise shaping algorithms as PGGB (but limited to 64bit precision). It operates as a stream renderer while Foobar handles the input decoding and output audio driver interfaces. As a track is playing, foo_pggb_rt processes the next track in the playlist so it's ready as needed for real-time performance and a gapless playback experience.

It is processor and RAM intensive, so a 4 or 8 core processor with 8GB -16GB or RAM is recommended. The reason for the requirement is because the component tries to achieve near ideal resampling.

The component works only with the 64bit version of Foobar2000 as the PGGB SDK that it uses is 64bit. Forum member Case was involved in the integration and porting. This version (5.1) improves over the previous version and no longer requires paid licensing to enable all features.

More information can be found here: foo_pggb_rt guide

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #1 – 2023-04-04 20:59:45

Costs like 300 dollars if you want to convert files with this tool, just enabling export on their free foobar plugin costs 300 bucks.

And... if you'd like to use their flagship 256-bit version, it costs a whopping 1030 dollars for 1 user license. The trial for this version is limited to 3 minutes per audio.

Sorry. The pricing is nuts. Above and beyond nuts, if I'm gonna be honest.

Sure, your resampler may be awesome, it is, but it's not worth this absurd price... especially when you're demanding 300 dollars just to enable export on the free version of this plugin...

IIRC, Earlier you used to charge 100$ for 1 license, but now you increased it ten fold... and that's 1000 bucks for a perpetual license, which is greek for no major updates, so people are expected to pay more whenever you come out with a newer version of this tool.

I mean, reconsider your marketing model, dev, it's going to be a tough sell otherwise, and maybe post its performance results on src.infinitewave.org, so that people can compare your product with other leading contenders.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #2 – 2023-04-04 21:54:21

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-04 20:59:45

Costs like 300 dollars if you want to convert files with this tool, just enabling export on their free foobar plugin costs 300 bucks.

No there is no such options. This is a real-time resampler and is free with no upgrades, it does what it says in the description. The off-line resampler you mention is different product and is not part of the Foobar plugin. The wordings on our website may not have been clear on this, so we have made some changes to address it.

In keeping with the spirit of Foobar2000, we decided to make the plugin completely free. I see no harm in offering free plugins and tools while still having other products that require licensing. This is our way of giving back to the community.

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-04 20:59:45

IIRC, Earlier you used to charge 100$ for 1 license, but now you increased it ten fold... and that's 1000 bucks for a perpetual license, which is greek for no major updates, so people are expected to pay more whenever you come out with a newer version of this tool.

Sorry you feel that way. Again, what you mention above is not related to Foobar plugin or the previous version of Foobar plugin, you are referring to PGGB 256 and the new PGGB-IT! which is a .Net interface to PGGB 256 which is completely different from what was offered earlier.

The current plugin is also an upgrade to previous version as we have moved away from the concept of 'taps' and in the algorithms used to improve objective performance over previous version.

I created this topic as a way to support and assist in using the component and would appreciate if the discussions were limited to the component.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #3 – 2023-04-04 23:23:06

Quote from: ZB on 2023-04-04 21:54:21

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-04 20:59:45
Costs like 300 dollars if you want to convert files with this tool, just enabling export on their free foobar plugin costs 300 bucks.

No there is no such options. This is a real-time resampler and is free with no upgrades, it does what it says in the description. The off-line resampler you mention is different product and is not part of the Foobar plugin. The wordings on our website may not have been clear on this, so we have made some changes to address it.

In keeping with the spirit of Foobar2000, we decided to make the plugin completely free. I see no harm in offering free plugins and tools while still having other products that require licensing. This is our way of giving back to the community.

Yeah, the thing is that, you have intentionally disabled saving the SRC's results or exporting them through the converter, to do that, your website clearly asks the user to upgrade and purchase the 300$ version which is exactly the same thing except it allows the user to export.

That's, not in the spirit of community as you said, it's rather coming off as a trial which it is because you're not allowing the user to save the results but just listen to it in that closed application... your program is computationally very intensive, 16 gigs of ram is what you ask for

If the user has to keep this program running forever to listen to their music, it makes a mockery about resource allocation, why would I wanna use 16gigs of ram every time I wanna listen to a file? I could export it to a 24bit flac and be done with it.

But rather, the only option here is to re do the src everytime you play the file, which also hijacks resources for doing other things on the PC, because the SRC also processes other tracks from the playlist whilst the first one is playing... so the computer resources are getting squeezed and redundant wastage of resources is arising when the user could've simply saved the converted file and listen to it forever without wasting their resources repeatedly.

But to do that, they gotta spend 300$ to buy your other tool which does the exact same job but allows them to save their results, that's not so much in the spirit of the DIY community. I respect what you think you're trying to bring to the table, but the approach seems off.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #4 – 2023-04-04 23:45:48

Quote

Yeah, the thing is that, you have intentionally disabled saving the SRC's results or exporting them through the converter, to do that, your website clearly asks the user to upgrade and purchase the 300$ version which is exactly the same thing except it allows the user to export.

No, the offline version is not exactly the same thing as it will only do the conversion and is not a player that will allow you to play the files in real-time. The offline version is meant for batch processing an entire library.

Quote

But rather, the only option here is to re do the src everytime you play the file, which also hijacks resources for doing other things on the PC, because the SRC also processes other tracks from the playlist whilst the first one is playing... so the computer resources are getting squeezed and redundant wastage of resources is arising when the user could've simply saved the converted file and listen to it forever without wasting their resources repeatedly.

Exporting files do come at a cost, the cost of storage depending on your DAC and to what rate you want to convert. I do not see Foobar's conversion as the best option if you had to do one album at a time. The component does not handle DSDs either. On the other hand, if you think the covert option is a useful feature you want, even if it is a bit cumbersome, then all you have to do is ask nicely and I will consider it.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #5 – 2023-04-05 02:33:41

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-04 20:59:45

Costs like 300 dollars if you want to convert files with this tool, just enabling export on their free foobar plugin costs 300 bucks.

Happy to say, not anymore. I have enabled convert/export options, and just released v5.2 of foo_pggb_rt

One of the reasons I was reluctant was there are some pitfalls to be aware of:

The output bit-depth chosen within PGGB-RT needs to match the output bit-depth of the file format chosen to save files.
When .wav is chosen as the output format, for bit-depth of 32, Foobar uses single precision float while PGGB-RT outputs fixed precision, conversion of 32bit int to 32bit floats results in truncation and some loss of quality
If output file size exceeds 4GB then .wav format should not be used

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #6 – 2023-04-05 13:22:03

Quote from: ZB on 2023-04-05 02:33:41

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-04 20:59:45
Costs like 300 dollars if you want to convert files with this tool, just enabling export on their free foobar plugin costs 300 bucks.

Happy to say, not anymore. I have enabled convert/export options, and just released v5.2 of foo_pggb_rt

One of the reasons I was reluctant was there are some pitfalls to be aware of:
The output bit-depth chosen within PGGB-RT needs to match the output bit-depth of the file format chosen to save files.
When .wav is chosen as the output format, for bit-depth of 32, Foobar uses single precision float while PGGB-RT outputs fixed precision, conversion of 32bit int to 32bit floats results in truncation and some loss of quality
If output file size exceeds 4GB then .wav format should not be used

Woah. Proud of you.

Ngl. I mean this is a huge step, anyone would be extremely reluctant to do so. but explaining genuine concerns to you, got you to release a new version within a day.

Thanks man, and your resampler sounds awesome. It's the best I've ever heard ngl, and I'm talking about just the free plugin, I wonder what the 256 bit processing could do.

Best wishes to you for this project, your best clients would be the best mastering studios in the world, they'd buy your software in minutes once they hear it, at the price you expect. Hit up Gateway Mastering, Bernie Grundman Mastering, Sterling Sound Nashville and Edgewater, and so many more top notch mastering studios.

I have tried all the mastering grade SRC's available everywhere, and except a direct transfer through an ADC, there's nothing that sounds so good in the digital domain.

Figure this out!!

Best wishes.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #7 – 2023-04-05 13:40:34

Converter isn't working now, I just updated the component from the link and tried using the converter

No matter which settings I'm choosing, foobar is immediately crashing as soon as I hit convert. I enabled Optional Decoding as well, turned of all the replaygain stuff in both, preferences and converter, set almost everything in PGGB to auto and the samplerate to 1fs at 24 bit output

Yet, foobar is unable to export a 24 bit wav with these preferences, could you please take a look or guide me about how to make this work? I followed the instructions on your website and tweaked with my own experience, but it's not working.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #8 – 2023-04-05 15:03:58

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 13:22:03

Thanks man, and your resampler sounds awesome. It's the best I've ever heard ngl, and I'm talking about just the free plugin, I wonder what the 256 bit processing could do.

Best wishes to you for this project, your best clients would be the best mastering studios in the world, they'd buy your software in minutes once they hear it, at the price you expect. Hit up Gateway Mastering, Bernie Grundman Mastering, Sterling Sound Nashville and Edgewater, and so many more top notch mastering studios.

I have tried all the mastering grade SRC's available everywhere, and except a direct transfer through an ADC, there's nothing that sounds so good in the digital domain.

Figure this out!!

Best wishes.

Thanks for the kind words and the purpose of the plugin is to give easy access to good quality SRC in real-time because off-line resampling requires a lot more effort and commitment. I know there are a lot of options when it comes to SRC and this component allows one to compare for themselves what to expect from PGGB. I also see this as a proof of concept that will allow me to build an AU/VST plugin that will hopefully allow real-time resampling of streamed music.

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 13:40:34

Converter isn't working now, I just updated the component from the link and tried using the converter

No matter which settings I'm choosing, foobar is immediately crashing as soon as I hit convert. I enabled Optional Decoding as well, turned of all the replaygain stuff in both, preferences and converter, set almost everything in PGGB to auto and the samplerate to 1fs at 24 bit output

Yet, foobar is unable to export a 24 bit wav with these preferences, could you please take a look or guide me about how to make this work? I followed the instructions on your website and tweaked with my own experience, but it's not working.

I would need more information like the settings you used within PGGB-RT, the settings you chose for converting, and I assume you are on the latest 64bit version of Foobar2000? This will help me try and replicate the issue.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #9 – 2023-04-05 17:34:32

Quote from: ZB on 2023-04-05 15:03:58

I would need more information like the settings you used within PGGB-RT, the settings you chose for converting, and I assume you are on the latest 64bit version of Foobar2000? This will help me try and replicate the issue.

Latest 64-Bit Foobar2000 v2.0 Beta 30

PGGB-RT:

Sample Rate: 1fs
Bit Depth: 24
Noise Shaper: Optimal
NS/HF: Auto
Gain: Disable
Equalise: Off
Workers: Auto
Processign: Maximize Quality

Converter:
WAV, 24 Bit, Dither Off
Enable Decoder Postprocessing

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #10 – 2023-04-05 17:45:27

Earlier I was just trying to export a file without hearing it real time, cuz I already did it yesterday, but it turns out, with the new update, I am not able to play anything with PGGB-RT, Foobar is instantly crashing as soon as I play any file with "Enable PGGB-RT"

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #11 – 2023-04-05 18:12:26

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 17:45:27

Earlier I was just trying to export a file without hearing it real time, cuz I already did it yesterday, but it turns out, with the new update, I am not able to play anything with PGGB-RT, Foobar is instantly crashing as soon as I play any file with "Enable PGGB-RT"

Is it possible that earlier you were using 'Maximize speed', did any other setting change?

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #12 – 2023-04-05 20:00:00

Quote from: ZB on 2023-04-05 18:12:26

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 17:45:27
Earlier I was just trying to export a file without hearing it real time, cuz I already did it yesterday, but it turns out, with the new update, I am not able to play anything with PGGB-RT, Foobar is instantly crashing as soon as I play any file with "Enable PGGB-RT"
Is it possible that earlier you were using 'Maximize speed', did any other setting change?

I wasn't using Max Speed and No I didn't change anything else

Plus my system is powerful enough, 20 gigabytes ddr4, 12 threads of amd ryzen, on a nvme ssd

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #13 – 2023-04-05 20:08:53

The change itself was quite trivial ( changed a single line of code), so I am not sure what is going on as I am unable to reproduce the issue.

Are you able to revert to previous version and does it solve the problem? Also the tried and tested 'Restart your PC'

Can you get me the console logs?(view->console->write log) not sure if it will be of any help.

Is anyone else facing this? please chime in.

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 17:45:27

Earlier I was just trying to export a file without hearing it real time, cuz I already did it yesterday, but it turns out, with the new update, I am not able to play anything with PGGB-RT, Foobar is instantly crashing as soon as I play any file with "Enable PGGB-RT"

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #14 – 2023-04-05 20:40:14

shucks, now v1 isn't working as well

that's definitely something else going on, and I'm trying to figure out what...the moment I play any file with PGGB my foobar is crashing... yes I restarted the system and no it didn't change a thing

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #15 – 2023-04-05 20:47:34

You may have to manually remove the component from Foobar and make sure there is no trace then install again.

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 20:40:14

shucks, now v1 isn't working as well

that's definitely something else going on, and I'm trying to figure out what...the moment I play any file with PGGB my foobar is crashing... yes I restarted the system and no it didn't change a thing

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #16 – 2023-04-05 21:01:38

Did the manual removal and update, now it's processing the file and as soon as it's done, it crashes

That was on maximise quality mode, on maximise speed it processes in 1 second and then crashes

I think it's having some issue reading the output file/data from PGGB because it's processing with no problems but as soon as it has to output, it crashes. I may be wrong, but that's something I came up with.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #17 – 2023-04-05 21:22:49

I noticed another thing.

The plugin started working whenever I chose upsampling settings, however whenever I choose a downsampling rate, it crashes again.

Still wondering why is it giving me so much trouble downsampling a 2fs file to 1fs ;-;

I tried changing my input device settings, the buffer length, sample rate, anything that could help...alas it didn't.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #18 – 2023-04-05 21:28:00

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 21:22:49

I noticed another thing.

The plugin started working whenever I chose upsampling settings, however whenever I choose a downsampling rate, it crashes again.

Still wondering why is it giving me so much trouble downsampling a 2fs file to 1fs ;-;

I tried changing my input device settings, the buffer length, sample rate, anything that could help...alas it didn't.

Downsampling has not been as extensively tested as PGGB is typically used for upsampling. Downsampling could be a bug on our end and I will check if it works here.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #19 – 2023-04-05 22:20:12

Downsampling crashes here too. I will check further if it is the component or if it is the pggb-rt sdk.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #20 – 2023-04-05 23:17:55

Quote from: ZB on 2023-04-05 22:20:12

Downsampling crashes here too. I will check further if it is the component or if it is the pggb-rt sdk.

That. was. such. a relief to read. I was actually concerned about what was happening with my pc or foobar installation.

Thankfully you're gonna solve it now.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #21 – 2023-04-06 12:25:03

PSA: We have seen crash reports and have identified one of the primary reasons being AVX2 instruction set not being available in the CPU. We use AVX2 instruction set to allow us to accelerate double precision computing. If your CPU does not support AVX2 instruction set, then the component will not work for you (All CPUs released after 2013 support it)

We will make changes to the component to either warn or disable the component when AVX2 support is not available.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #22 – 2023-04-07 15:40:39

Quote from: ZB on 2023-04-06 12:25:03

PSA: We have seen crash reports and have identified one of the primary reasons being AVX2 instruction set not being available in the CPU. We use AVX2 instruction set to allow us to accelerate double precision computing. If your CPU does not support AVX2 instruction set, then the component will not work for you (All CPUs released after 2013 support it)

We will make changes to the component to either warn or disable the component when AVX2 support is not available.

My CPU was released recently, pretty sure you have it in my crash reports too, it does support AVX2 and has 6 cores with 12 threads, and it was released in 2022

So idts that its my hardware that's causing the crashes.

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #23 – 2023-04-07 15:51:31

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-07 15:40:39

My CPU was released recently, pretty sure you have it in my crash reports too, it does support AVX2 and has 6 cores with 12 threads, and it was released in 2022

So idts that its my hardware that's causing the crashes.

No, your hardware was not the issue, it is related to down sampling not working, it is reproducible here. In your case, the track was downsampled as you noted (the processing completed) but something goes wrong during the transfer of the output buffer for playback. Same thing happens during my testing here. Hopefully, we will be able to find the cause this weekend.

The AVX2 support is a separate issue, and if the AVX2 instructions are not supported by the CPU, it would crash as soon as the processing begins.

Upsampling should work without any issues on supported CPUs. Where your prior listening impressions based on upsampling? what is the DAC you use?

Re: Remastero's foo_pggb_rt, a 64 bit Foobar2000 component for resampling

Reply #24 – 2023-04-08 21:51:51

Quote from: darkalex on 2023-04-05 23:17:55

That. was. such. a relief to read. I was actually concerned about what was happening with my pc or foobar installation.

Thankfully you're gonna solve it now.

We just released an update v5.3 (download, help)

Fixes crashes when downsampling is enabled
Does not crash when AVX2 instruction set is not available, instead disables PGGB-RT
Convert feature is fully functional for all settings
Adds some tips in the UI

Starting v2.0 Beta 29, Foobar2000 64 bit supports both 32-bit fixed point and floats for file conversion, this is really great for to using the 'Convert' feature and saving resampled files. Please update Foobar2000 to the latest version, and do not choose 32-bit float as the file output bit-depth to avoid loss of precision.

Notice