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Topic: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?  (Read 4748 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #25
Got these results from ABX Comperator.

I hear some differences between sources,
B = 24/44.1 is somewhat "roomier" and following lyrics and text letter lingual sounds like "s" "tion" is "clearer".
I don't understand the log though, what it means, the p-value?

Thanks and best regards
redorb

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 2.0.6d report
foobar2000 v1.6.10
2022-04-02 15:36:03

File A: 02 Where's The Revolution.flac
SHA1: cc97f81f009efced34aeedf61fddd6f9244b622c
Gain adjustment: -9.26 dB
File B: 01-02-Depeche_Mode-Where_s_the_Revolution.flac
SHA1: 4daed7dfb96d32b735123e8f2c0de81f4287ac84
Gain adjustment: -9.27 dB

Output:
Default :
Crossfading: YES

15:36:03 : Test started.
15:48:07 : 00/01
15:59:59 : 01/02
16:13:35 : 02/03
16:24:04 : 02/04
17:32:16 : 02/05
17:42:46 : 03/06
18:04:53 : 03/07
18:27:10 : 04/08
18:27:10 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 4/8
p-value: 0.6367 (63.67%) <-- (Probability that you were guessing: )?
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #26
You chose correctly 4 out of 8. 50/50, meaning you are performing just as a cointoss would be expected to do.

p-value:
Suppose I were sitting next to you and not listening to anything, merely tossing a coin. What are the chances that I would end up with your score of 4 or better than your score of 4?
That is 63.67 percent.

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Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #27
I hear some differences between sources,
B = 24/44.1 is somewhat "roomier" and following lyrics and text letter lingual sounds like "s" "tion" is "clearer".

"roomier" Well that's a new one, I have not hear.
You are on Hydrogenaudio, not Stereophile :)

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #28
I hear some differences between sources,
B = 24/44.1 is somewhat "roomier" and following lyrics and text letter lingual sounds like "s" "tion" is "clearer".

"roomier" Well that's a new one, I have not hear.
You are on Hydrogenaudio, not Stereophile :)
Thanks for your input.
I do not know what the difference is?
Just tried to describe a perceived soundscape.
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #29
You chose correctly 4 out of 8. 50/50, meaning you are performing just as a cointoss would be expected to do.

p-value:
Suppose I were sitting next to you and not listening to anything, merely tossing a coin. What are the chances that I would end up with your score of 4 or better than your score of 4?
That is 63.67 percent.


Well, I guess you are right, but I don't really understand the settings of ABX comparator, I just let it run through the 8 pass test, not actively preferring one track before the other.
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #30
I don't really understand the settings of ABX comparator, I just let it run through the 8 pass test, not actively preferring one track before the other.
The "ABX" method is not about which one you "prefer" among two that are audibly different.
It is about whether you can detect any audible difference whatsoever.

Here is how it works:
(0) You have a sample "A" and a sample "B". The whole point is, can you tell the difference? You decide on N trials to test so.
(1) Software picks an "X" randomly between those: fifty-fifty chance of X=A, fifty-fifty chance of X=B.
(2) You are allowed to listen to "A", "B", and "X" as much as you like, until you are ready to "decide upon X":
(3) You select either "I think X=A" or "I think X=B". That will be either right or wrong.
(4) Repeat steps (1) through (3) another N-1 times (new X randomized every time), N in total.

You have now "guessed" N times. Or have you done better than guessing? The so-called null hypothesis in statistics is that there is no audible (to you) difference, and there is no difference between your choices and what a coin toss would do.

We then answer the following question: "Is your result or better something a coin would be likely to produce?" That is the p value. In that experiment, there is fairly good chance a coin would "guess right" at least four out of eight.
Had you been correct 5/8, the p value would have been around .36. That means that in a competition with 9999 coins, you would end up at 3633rd place - that isn't much evidence that you can tell the difference?

A score of 10 out of 13 would put you in the top 5 percent. That is a commonly accepted (but not "universally" accepted) threshold to conclude that you are better than the coin.


If you misunderstood what listening and selecting were good for, then discard the log you produced and give it another try. Choose N=13 then?
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Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #31
@Porcus
OK, got it! Thanks, wish there had been a guide to "how to use" ABX Comperator, and you provided one!  :)
Now I need to clear my head from the song before I do a new test, I'll get back to you later.

Best regards,
redorb

Found this when trying to figure out the ABX.
Funny!
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/abx-you-really-need-to-do-it-to-understand.7426/#:~:text=Some%20people%20do,all%20be%20different.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/abx-you-really-need-to-do-it-to-understand.7426/#:~:text=In%20fact%20you%20can%20do%20a%20reasonable%20job%20with%20a%20large%20curtain%20and%20a%20bit%20of%20help%20(no%2C%20not%20the%20wife).
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #32
Well, I do "upsample" - on the fly - all music audio that I listen in my system @ 4x/8x DSD.

Does this perform "sonically" better ?
I honestly don't know but, for what I have understood about DACs (including my Topping E50), modern converters/filters works better at their "native" resolution.

Anyway I do always choose 24 bit depth when I do record audio performances.
Forward Agency NPO

In progress we (always) trust.

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #33
Well, I do "upsample" - on the fly - all music audio that I listen in my system @ 4x/8x DSD.

Does this perform "sonically" better ?
I honestly don't know but, for what I have understood about DACs (including my Topping E50), modern converters/filters works better at their "native" resolution.
Not true.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/octave-music-don-grusin-high-resolution-music-analysis-video.31620/post-1138796

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #34
Well, I do "upsample" - on the fly - all music audio that I listen in my system @ 4x/8x DSD.

Does this perform "sonically" better ?
I honestly don't know but, for what I have understood about DACs (including my Topping E50), modern converters/filters works better at their "native" resolution.
Not true.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/octave-music-don-grusin-high-resolution-music-analysis-video.31620/post-1138796
If you carefully read those 3ads, it's debated (afaik shouln't make difference or little... ...and engineering matters:  "It's simply the Pro-Ject is unable to adequately utilize the PCM potential of the ESS chips, which clearly lags behind the Topping D10B in Amir's reviews.").

BTW this 3ad is about audio resolution and yes, I do strongly prefer NATIVE 24bits depth over 16 (at least in recording phase).

PCM or DSD ?
I never used a DSD-capable multitrack recorder, so - at the moment - I do use 24bit PCM ADCs
Forward Agency NPO

In progress we (always) trust.

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #35
Quote from: bennetng
If you carefully read those 3ads, it's debated (afaik shouln't make difference or little... ...and engineering matters:  "It's simply the Pro-Ject is unable to adequately utilize the PCM potential of the ESS chips, which clearly lags behind the Topping D10B in Amir's reviews."
If you really carefully read the thread, this sentence was actually written by me in this post, in the context that the Project was too noisy so that it can't really reveal the elevated noise floor of DSD when compared to PCM in the audio band (below 20kHz). Also read carefully that I did not quote your text about recording because that was not what I wanted to reply.

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #36
I hear some differences between sources,
B = 24/44.1 is somewhat "roomier" and following lyrics and text letter lingual sounds like "s" "tion" is "clearer".

"roomier" Well that's a new one, I have not hear.
You are on Hydrogenaudio, not Stereophile :)
Thanks for your input.
I do not know what the difference is?
Just tried to describe a perceived soundscape.
Claiming to hear a difference wihout ABX is illegal in here. Like actually its in the rules lol.

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #37
Quote
Claiming to hear a difference wihout ABX is illegal in here. Like actually its in the rules lol.
Thanks for your input.
Really? Is that your contribution to this thread?
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #38
Quote
Claiming to hear a difference wihout ABX is illegal in here. Like actually its in the rules lol.
Thanks for your input.
Really? Is that your contribution to this thread?

It's true though. Terms of Service #8: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=3974#post_tos8

To quote part of this rule
Quote
This rule is the very core of Hydrogenaudio, so it is very important that you follow it.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #39
To quote part of this rule
Quote
This rule is the very core of Hydrogen audio, so it is very important that you follow it.
OK, I will follow that rule, will try to edit out my earlier "perceived" text...
Sorry, but edit is not possible... apologies... you live and you learn, hopefully?
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #40
Sorry, but edit is not possible...
Not after an hour or so.
you live and you learn, hopefully?
Yeah, so ... no harm done.

The reason for the focus on blind testing for difference or not is how human hearing ("hearing" -> the process in the brain) is easily tricked by other senses. When we think that this sounds better than that, it is often not due to sound, but to mixing up with other senses: we often hear what we expect to hear, regardless of whether it is actually in the sound. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGurk_effect and the two videos linked to at the end.



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Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #41
Exactly, it's just like when you enjoyed a good red wine, in nice company,
in a small wonderful restaurant in a small village in Italy and when you got home, bought the exact same wine and ...
Or you saw a warm and romantic movie with the one you love and want to see it again a few years later, and ...
Things change over time, I'm still a warm and romantic person, aged with dignity, just like my stereo...

My setup is not a High-End setup and quite old... just like me, but it shure sounds perfect in my ears... warm and romantic...
I've been taking care of it like if it was my baby and, it is my baby, never gonna let go of it.
Still have all the original boxes safely tucked away.

NAD 2155 Stereo Power Amplifier (renovated, new soldering)
NAD 3155 Stereo Integrated Amplifier (bridge to 2155) (renovated, new potentiometer, new soldering)
NAD 4225 Stereo AM/FM Tuner
DENON DP-72L Turntable (Denon DL-103R Moving Coil cartridge)
DENON DCD 1500 CD-player
BOSTON A-400 (Walnut) (replaced surrounds foam, new cones on tweeters, new soldering,
walnut wood finely sanded and varnished with high gloss hard boat varnish 5 layers,
matted down with #00000 pro grade steel wool, got that matt soft deep shimmer to it)
AKG K872 Headphones
Cables No fancy or insanely expensive ones, for speakers 4 mm2 oxygen-free OFC copper, AudioQuest RCA.
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #42
walnut wood finely sanded and varnished with high gloss hard boat varnish 5 layers,
matted down with #00000 pro grade steel wool, got that matt soft deep shimmer to it)
Celebrate the wonders of placebo! :-)

Well seriously, appearance does fool you. That is just human nature. And marketing sharks know: Here was a famous story from a few years ago, when somebody
* disassembled a pair of Beats by Dr. Dre headphones, and found out that they had added metal parts in "useless" places to gain weight (the "heavier" feel is generally perceived as quality)
* found out then that they had bought a counterfeit pair
* ... and got the real thing, disassembled that, and found out that indeed the counterfeits had copied that particular "feature" from the real ones.
https://beneinstein.medium.com/how-it-s-made-series-yup-our-beats-were-counterfeit-but-they-cost-about-the-same-to-make-as-the-364cc6808d18

Now ... your AKGs are probably way into the law of diminishing returns.
Last two months' worth of foobar2000.org ad revenue has been donated to support war refugees from Ukraine: https://www.foobar2000.org/

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #43
I know! They fit nicely on my head and ears though, but the price is ridiculous!
Let's not get into how they sound... ;D
Lucky for me I got them as a birthday present.
I also have two pairs of AKG K272 which I bought many years ago.
At computer I've run over the cables with the office chair a few times... haha.
I bought the exactly same spare cables from Thomann, easy to solder back yourself.
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #44
Quote
Claiming to hear a difference wihout ABX is illegal in here. Like actually its in the rules lol.
Thanks for your input.
Really? Is that your contribution to this thread?
You are very welcome.

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #45

I did a lot of ABX tests with different sources.
My own CDs to .wav and bought albums/songs with FLAC 24bit/44kHz - 24bit/48kHz - 24bit/192kHz
I won't go into what they sound like...
The ABX results are somewhat confusing and I won't go into that either...
Peace, over and out...
What is the opposite of music?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #46
Brei

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #47
What is the opposite of music?

 

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #48
What the hell is going on in this topic?

Re: Is digital hi-res 24-Bit 44.1 kHz - Stereo just a sales ploy?

Reply #49
I'm pretty sure it has something to do with 'Kartoffelbrei'
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.