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Topic: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible (Read 2929 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Upscaling MP3 to DSD
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Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #50
I usually record vinyls in DSD 5.6 Mhz 1bit format and then I convert it with TEAC/TASCAM Hi-Res Editor to WAV 192/32bit float to have the sound as analogue as possible and to make further optimizations with Adobe Audition 3.0 (denoise, remove clicks and crackles, Bass, Mid, Treble calibration, compression, normalization,...). Then, I use this 192/32bit wav "master tape" for archiving (wavpack) and for convert it to 48/32float WAV for auditions or for smartphone HQ mp3s.

If & When the Zombie Apocalypse Happens

You will probably regret wasting your Time on such a pointless Exercise.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #51
Cartridges can have significant crosstalk between channels. If this is (predominantly) out of phase, it could result in a slight widening effect.
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #52
Vinyl needs 14 bits, tops.

All I wanted for Christmas was one of those 14 bit ADCs and Santa didn't deliver.  I'm in tears.

Can I ask you a question?  How many actual vinyl rips have you ever done? Roughly.  Is it in the 10s, 100s, 1,000s, etc.

Many thanks!

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #53
Vinyl needs 14 bits, tops.
All I wanted for Christmas was one of those 14 bit ADCs and Santa didn't deliver.  I'm in tears.
Can I ask you a question?  How many actual vinyl rips have you ever done? Roughly.  Is it in the 10s, 100s, 1,000s, etc.
Many thanks!
You should have asked Santa for reading glasses. ;-)
Please present your measured 10s, 100s, 1,000s, etc. examples of >14bit dynamic range vinyl.
Many TIA
Loudspeaker manufacturer

 

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #54
I’ve digitized 8,934 albums. None needed more than 14 bits.

Really though, it could have been zero. It isn’t up to me to show that vinyl needs more than 14 bits to be distinguished from the real McCoy.

Logical fallacy much, Groove, or does critical thinking escape you completely?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #55
I’ve digitized 8,934 albums. None needed more than 14 bits.

You have me at a disadvantage, in so far as I can not work out whether that is a common garden variety lie or you are simply being facetious.

in either case it is not really a basis for any sort of rational discussion, but rather a case of you playing to your gallery, isn't it?

PS.  I'll stick to my initial guesstimate of nil  ;)



Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #56
It is a very rational discussion. You don’t seem like you’re interested in having one, though.

To answer your question I’m speaking about what seems to be a compete lack of evidence that vinyl requires even 16 bits let alone 32.  Do you have any!?!

Anyway, my dick is bigger so I guess that means I know more about something or other.  Not quite sure what.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #57
PS.  I'll stick to my initial guesstimate of nil  ;)
Sort of like the number of >14 bit vinyl examples you can provide
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #58
To answer your question I’m speaking about what seems to be a compete lack of evidence that vinyl requires even 16 bits let alone 32.  Do you have any!?!

You haven't answered my question, but have instead evaded it.  Again.

To answer **your** question, that all depends on what you mean my 'require'.

To make sure I fill up a 16 bit ADC, I would want to be peaking around -6 dB FS.  That means driving the analog side of my chain fairly hard and generating quite a bit of soft clipping.

Conversely if I am using 24 bit - as I do - I have much more scope to play with the level of soft clipping I **choose** to introduce in the analog domain. depending on how saturated a sound I want to produce.

I have not once disputed that 16bits are theoretically enough to capture the dynamic range of vinyl, merely that in real world applications dogmatically held beliefs like that don't deliver the best results.  Although  ironically if the OP wants the most analog (/saturated) sound possible, he might as well stick to 16 bits and drive his analog gear as hard as he can.





Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #60
[...]I have not once disputed that 16bits are theoretically enough to capture the dynamic range of vinyl [...]
based on the fact that the creation of "audio cd standard" 16/44.1 took with "stock", then for vinyl, a priori the lower-quality media, 16/44.1 is more than enough.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #61
You haven't answered my question, but have instead evaded it.  Again.
I already addressed your non-non sequitur.

Just assume I’ve made zero. How does this constitute evidence of audible differences per the discussion at hand?

To answer **your** question, that all depends on what you mean my 'require'.
Delivery format, peak normalized played under non-pathological circumstances. How you get there isn’t the topic, nor is how many vinyl captures I have made.

Unlike yours, **my** question is about the topic at hand.

To make sure I fill up a 16 bit ADC, I would want to be peaking around -6 dB FS.  That means driving the analog side of my chain fairly hard and generating quite a bit of soft clipping.

Conversely if I am using 24 bit - as I do - I have much more scope to play with the level of soft clipping I **choose** to introduce in the analog domain. depending on how saturated a sound I want to produce.
Seems like you have an issue with your hardware or you don't have the faintest idea how this AD -> DA thing works.

merely that in real world applications dogmatically held beliefs like that don't deliver the best results.
Again, supported by what evidence?

Sort of like the number of >14 bit vinyl examples you can provide

Here ya go: http://bfy.tw/Sc9
Ironic.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #62
Quote
To make sure I fill up a 16 bit ADC, I would want to be peaking around -6 dB FS.  That means driving the analog side of my chain fairly hard and generating quite a bit of soft clipping.
If your analog-side is clipping that's and analog problem.   An ADC clips at 0dB and nothing bad happens if you get close to 0dB.

Quote
Conversely if I am using 24 bit - as I do - I have much more scope to play with the level of soft clipping I **choose** to introduce in the analog domain. depending on how saturated a sound I want to produce.
Clipping (soft or otherwise) reduces the dynamic range making it "easier" to digitize. 

Quote
I have not once disputed that 16bits are theoretically enough to capture the dynamic range of vinyl, merely that in real world applications dogmatically held beliefs like that don't deliver the best results. 
In the real world (and here at Hydrogen Audio) you'd need to demonstrate that you can hear a difference between 16-bits or higher.  

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #63
If your analog-side is clipping that's and analog problem

As I have already alluded to, that really is objectively a matter of taste and subjective opinion.

Other than that I have nothing further to add.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #64
It’s about resolution for transparency.

It has nothing to do with preference of ADC or the number of bits you use when digitizing. It has nothing to do the processing you do after digitizing, nor has it anything to do with whatever interface problems you create.

...it also has nothing to do with the size of your penis how many records you've digitized.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #65
Other than that I have nothing further to add.
Add?  You're giving yourself too much credit.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #66
Other than that I have nothing further to add.
Add?  You're giving yourself too much credit.

Indeed.  Unlike you I am unable to bend time and space and define this discussion solely about delivery formats, in the process pretending that for example the preceding page about vinyl capture and recording did not take place.


Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #68
I have not once disputed that 16bits are theoretically enough to capture the dynamic range of vinyl, merely that in real world applications dogmatically held beliefs like that don't deliver the best results.
More posterior belief assertion, zero evidence
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #69
the preceding page about vinyl capture
What, brilliant bob tossing out fresh meat with his idiotic off-topic post that was ultimately split for the vultures?  Yes, you're correct.

Regardless, why did you decide to draw my post into question and then expect an unrelated answer?

http://bfy.tw/HEhH

Then again, this was just an unimportant throwaway discussion, so why not challenge my post with an irrelevant logical fallacy, right?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #70
I usually record vinyls in DSD 5.6 Mhz 1bit format and then I convert it with TEAC/TASCAM Hi-Res Editor to WAV 192/32bit float

This step what I don't get. Why go through DSD anyway? So far I thought of DSD as another representation of digital audio or it reminds me of those 1 bit DACs in old Philips CD players used. (I have a Technics with MASH which I thought is 1 bit but it is actually 4)

But back on topic, what does this step add or remove from the recording?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #71
Nobody said there was anything wrong with recording at a high sample depth. You can set it to a 50% volume or so and it won't clip, then you record at 24 bit depth. Then you make sure your recording is not clipped in any way. Then you can peak scale it to maximum volume level, resting assured that you're not losing any precision. Then you perform your cleanup on the signal. Then you save your final result as a 44100/16 file in whatever format you want, knowing you probably won't be able to distinguish it from the analog original. Feel free to keep your multiple edit stages in 192/24 for future reference or future editing or re-cleaning, but it's really pointless to keep it at those settings for regular listening.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #72
Nobody said there was anything wrong with recording at a high sample depth. You can set it to a 50% volume or so and it won't clip, then you record at 24 bit depth. Then you make sure your recording is not clipped in any way. Then you can peak scale it to maximum volume level, resting assured that you're not losing any precision. Then you perform your cleanup on the signal. Then you save your final result as a 44100/16 file in whatever format you want, knowing you probably won't be able to distinguish it from the analog original. Feel free to keep your multiple edit stages in 192/24 for future reference or future editing or re-cleaning, but it's really pointless to keep it at those settings for regular listening.
Makes sense to me. The marginal cost of recording at the maximum precision available is essentially 0. If that gives peace of mind, go for it.

For archival, editing or playback purposes, one might peak-normalize the file and store it at appropriate precision. If hard drive space is not an issue, keep the 24/96 or whatever. If hard drive space is an issue, reduce to 16/44.1 and possibly do lossy compression.

The important part is to disregard what 99% of the population say about "how to get good sound". For some reason, "everyone" has an opinion on that matter. Read a book. Try for yourself. Or ask at hydrogen audio. But don't let hifi journalists/sales people/lunatics drive you into wasting time and money on the things that does not affect your music and sound enjoyment.

-k

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #73
off topic but having some headroom above the vinyl dynamic range range in the digital dynamic range stops dust and scratches causing a clipped period.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #74
Not advocating using less headroom than is necessary to keep peaks from going beyond full scale, but the chance of distinguishing a clipped peak resulting from dust or scratches from a non-clipped one is essentially zero.

Anyway for those who haven’t followed the decade+ worth of discussions on best practice of vinyl digitization and subsequent processing up to and including the final output format that is not driven by placebo, the previous posts will suffice.

Unless you're into that kind of thing, instead of overdriving your ADC, consider a pair of these or something similar:
http://xotic.us/effects/ep-booster
To go over the top try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibanez_Tube_Screamer
or something slightly less extreme: https://www.butleraudio.com/tubedriver.php

These are just a couple of possible ways to degrade the already lo-fi signal coming for your high-end phono cartridge that may indicate where my interests lie.

Preference is subjective after all. ;)
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

 
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