Skip to main content
Topic: K2 HD is the new crap around? (Read 2810 times) previous topic - next topic
KFal and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #25
I recommend you the same, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS WRITTEN!
You are the one embarrassing yourself and you look dumb doing it.
Quote
All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims.

What do I need to provide?
Quote
Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on

What you said about my waveforms and graphs?
Quote
I seriously doubt you have ever tested yourself to find what  levels constitute uncomfortable 'over compression' to you.  Especially if you rely on waveforms, replaygain values,  and TNT Meter nonsense, versus your ears.

If I can't rely on waveforms and graphs what do you expect me to rely on?
As a moderator you should NEVER escalate things, ever!

You have something to say YOU counterargument my points, you counterargument my graphs and waveforms and not act like a stupid.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #26
"Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support."

If you want to go back the broader scope of your discussion that, "K2 sounds like crap," then it is up to you to validate that claim per our rules.  If "the best of your ability" doesn't meet the criteria required by these rules then we can't actually have a meaningful discussion and as such you have no business raising the issue.

There is no need to provide any counterarguments.  The burden falls on you to prove your claim.

you can't trust your brain to [...] hear anything.
Indeed, hence our requirement for objective evidence by way of properly controlled double-blind testing.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #27
Sorry mate, the forum didn't notified me about your reply.

Well, I'm not asking for support or either offering support to anything, it's just a discussion and yes I have a business raising a discussion.

About the criteria, ABX or AB tests has a flaw in it that I've already explained, you can't trust your brain to interpret what you see with your eyes or hear with your ears to make qualified decisions unless you know what to look for or has some training in the field to pick up the small nuances and subtle details. People are different, that is why you need tools to assist you.

I'm not saying that DBT is not important,it is, but you can't rely only on them to make decisions because our brains it's not binary, A or B, 1 or 0, our brain has too many variables to account for.
Here is Paul McGowan to share some light on the issue, the guy is CEO of PS Audio and share the same opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy2MsscuBnM

If AB test is so important to you, there you have it, enough to test your senses.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #28
Sorry mate, the forum didn't notified me about your reply.

Well, I'm not asking for support or either offering support to anything, it's just a discussion and yes I have a business raising a discussion.

About the criteria, ABX or AB tests has a flaw in it that I've already explained, you can't trust your brain to interpret what you see with your eyes or hear with your ears to make qualified decisions unless you know what to look for or has some training in the field to pick up the small nuances and subtle details. People are different, that is why you need tools to assist you.

I'm not saying that DBT is not important,it is, but you can't rely only on them to make decisions because our brains it's not binary, A or B, 1 or 0, our brain has too many variables to account for.
Here is Paul McGowan to share some light on the issue, the guy is CEO of PS Audio and share the same opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy2MsscuBnM

If AB test is so important to you, there you have it, enough to test your senses.

Apparently you don't get it.
What he wants is a proof that you are able to hear the difference. This means, at least, a log from ABX comparing utility where you consistently detect the difference between these samples.
And it's not there, the archive contains only samples themselves.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #29
Well, I'm not asking for support or either offering support to anything, it's just a discussion and yes I have a business raising a discussion.

About the criteria, ABX or AB tests has a flaw in it that I've already explained, you can't trust your brain to interpret what you see with your eyes or hear with your ears to make qualified decisions unless you know what to look for or has some training in the field to pick up the small nuances and subtle details. People are different, that is why you need tools to assist you.

I'm not saying that DBT is not important,it is, but you can't rely only on them to make decisions because our brains it's not binary, A or B, 1 or 0, our brain has too many variables to account for.
Here is Paul McGowan to share some light on the issue, the guy is CEO of PS Audio and share the same opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy2MsscuBnM

If AB test is so important to you, there you have it, enough to test your senses.
Hydrogenaudio is not for you then, thanks.
Edit: A nice place where variable brain binaries can help Alien Abduction Help Forum
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #30
And there you have it: you need to be able to detect subtle nuances when you don't know which sample you're listening to. When you do know which is which ahead of time, the differences are night and day.

Classic.

So which is it, the middle K2 release is obviously crap, making you feel like you're in an anechoic chamber or the differences between middle K2 release and the non-K2 release are only subtle?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #31
Apparently you don't get it.
What he wants is a proof that you are able to hear the difference. This means, at least, a log from ABX comparing utility where you consistently detect the difference between these samples.
And it's not there, the archive contains only samples themselves.
Apparently, you are.
Here:
Code: [Select]
foo_abx 2.0.5 report
foobar2000 v1.4
2018-11-10 15:12:40

File A: _a.flac
SHA1: 6bb13eaaf1e88834a70821f6ed944df669cfbf44
File B: b.flac
SHA1: 105c78ff2ac0bf37a1075e35f9d4e3d74b5b007e

Output:
DS : Driver de som primário
Crossfading: NO

15:12:40 : Test started.
15:13:54 : 01/01
15:14:04 : 02/02
15:14:14 : 03/03
15:14:22 : 04/04
15:14:33 : 05/05
15:14:44 : 06/06
15:14:59 : 07/07
15:15:12 : 08/08
15:15:26 : 09/09
15:15:38 : 10/10
15:15:38 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 10/10
Probability that you were guessing: 0.1%

 -- signature --
c120902a839f19e31891ff12cb93f617aee80fd7

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 2.0.5 report
foobar2000 v1.4
2018-11-10 15:05:09

File A: 03. Sogno_cd_japan.flac
SHA1: b05d756a44e46fa76e91c7de2f20c7f1ffa31878
File B: 03. Sogno_k2hd.flac
SHA1: 6c0de7fb3169025d8641bb8d6f42b05fab8f52b8

Output:
DS : Driver de som primário
Crossfading: NO

15:05:09 : Test started.
15:06:39 : 01/01
15:06:50 : 02/02
15:07:00 : 03/03
15:07:15 : 04/04
15:07:23 : 05/05
15:07:31 : 06/06
15:07:38 : 07/07
15:07:47 : 08/08
15:07:57 : 09/09
15:08:06 : 10/10
15:08:06 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 10/10
Probability that you were guessing: 0.1%

 -- signature --
81aa6b9e34aa39ca77f6507b5f4251ffe3e20443

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #32
For giggles I went ahead and watched the youtube video and agree that in order to be good at listening tests you need training and an adequate reproduction system.

He is completely off the mark by saying that the difference between blind AB testing and ABX testing is that people are standing over you, not allowing you the proper time to make choices. He is also wrong in implying that one can't take their time and listen to A or B in an ABX test and freely switch between the two.  Also, in an ABX test you are allowed to know which is which, you just need to match X up to one or the other. It really is no different than how he describes his ideal AB forced-choice test.

If you truly like the sound quality of A or B better than you will have to identify the difference in either style of test.  If one is truly able to perceive a difference then it shouldn't be a problem getting the same result after a dozen trials. In order to be able to determine whether you can do better than deciding by flipping a coin is to be presented with X which is either A or B while still always knowing that you can switch between a known A and a known B as often as you like for as long as you like.  If one sounds like crap or you are trained to identify subtle differences, passing the test should be no problem. If it turns out the the differences are too subtle to pass the test then they are too subtle to matter.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #33
...of course the two samples have to be time-aligned and level-matched.  Level-matching is a requirement that Paul McGowan stated, himself.  I'm sure he would agree that the samples be time-aligned in order not to provide a cue as to which is which.

Neither time-alignment nor level-matching have been done with the samples used in the ABX test above.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #34
"You need proof that you are able to hear the difference...a log from ABX"
"...of course the two samples have to be time-aligned and level-matched.  Neither have been done with the samples used with the above ABX test."

Do I need to jump in one foot while I do it too?
Hahahahahahahahahaha... Omg!

You have the same samples I have (check the hash), why don't you guys share some logs with us?
What ever dude...

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #35
Hearing and abx this 1dB level difference of the samples does not exactly need golden ears or variable brain binaries.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #36
Time alignment and level matching aren't that difficult.  They are crucial, dude.

FWIW, I am a trained listener and have been employed in that capacity.  The differences between the two time-aligned and level-matched samples are only subtle at the most.  One is definitely not utter crap compared to the other.

Quite honestly, I'd prefer a more dynamic version than either of these two.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #37
Well, trained listener, show us some logs not less than mine.
If you or who ever can't do that and now are given excuses, we have nothing else to discuss.

K2HD is crap, simples as that.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #38
Hearing and abx this 1dB level difference of the samples does not exactly need golden ears or variable brain binaries.
Yeah but, can your ears pickup  a 1 dB difference in a ABX test? You figure that out using tools, that my point since the beginning.
Or you need time alignment, planet alignment or what ever excuse people will came up with next.

You guys are taking too much time to come up with the logs, it's easy right?
I have something better to do.

Have a good one.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #39
Lets talk about 0.3dB or less in level difference is hard to abx. If 1dB is you have the wrong hobby.
Please show us the log of the samples greynol fixed for you.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #40
Well, trained listener, show us some logs not less than mine.
If you or who ever can't do that and now are given excuses, we have nothing else to discuss.

K2HD is crap, simples as that.
What if I gave you a test that showed I could do no better than using a coin to do the selection?

Do you get it now?

Try the corrected samples I provided.  Then tell me how a difference that is hardly stark can distinguish between crap and not crap in any rational way.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #41
Yeah but, can your ears pickup  a 1 dB difference in a ABX test? You figure that out using tools, that my point since the beginning.
You use tools that test your ability to hear differences, actually hear differences.

Pretty graphs test your ability to detect light.  Last I checked, the tools that are used to detect light aren't the ones that are used to detect sound.

An ABX test isolates the tool used to detect sound from other tools that do not.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #42

Yeah but, can your ears pickup  a 1 dB difference in a ABX test? You figure that out using tools, that my point since the beginning.
Or you need time alignment, planet alignment or what ever excuse people will came up with next.

I say you losing this argument.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #43
With three versions one can perform an ABC/HR test which allows for ranking.  This is a great way to separate crap from not crap.

The caveat is that ranking the reference too low will invalidate the rest of the test results.  This can easily happen when someone isn't conservative enough and tries to show a large difference in preference between all three when a large preference isn't appropriate.  This can easily happen when at least two of the three samples have only very slight differences and the person performing the test makes a mistake in identifying the reference.  Whenever there is the slightest doubt one will need to rank the top two with the highest score which doesn't work so well in demonstrating that anything besides the reference is crap.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #44
Try the corrected samples I provided.  Then tell me how a difference that is hardly stark can distinguish between crap and not crap in any rational way.

Again, more and more excuses... it's because this, that.. the alignment, the moon, the planets, the wind...
There you have it.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 2.0.5 report
foobar2000 v1.4
2018-11-10 17:34:35

File A: 1.flac
SHA1: dc50b0ddae78a86a8bba8cd9971a7ef8ef0848ed
File B: 2.flac
SHA1: 8ebb615cbbabeef02a278808c2891c2484681520

Output:
DS : Driver de som primário
Crossfading: NO

17:34:35 : Test started.
17:34:54 : 01/01
17:35:27 : 02/02
17:35:51 : 03/03
17:36:14 : 04/04
17:36:45 : 04/05
17:37:07 : 05/06
17:37:29 : 06/07
17:37:52 : 07/08
17:38:20 : 08/09
17:38:46 : 09/10
17:38:46 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 9/10
Probability that you were guessing: 1.1%

 -- signature --
b1d44f488c83bb3fb5791ef9596d212920b8f10c

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #45
Oh by the way...
I want a log from you guys too. ;)

Ps: Equal or better.

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #46
Oh by the way 2...
Foobar sound like shit and EQ is garbage.

 

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #48
I want a log from you guys too. ;)
What do you hope to accomplish with this?  This about what you think and how you came about getting there.  This was never about what others can do.

So...

At 4 minutes to conduct 10 trials I wouldn't say you can honestly claim the version you didn't like as well as being crap.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: K2 HD is the new crap around?

Reply #49
Oh...

Assuming you've judged the two samples without looking at them, that is to say using only your ears, which of the two would you say is crappier?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

 
SimplePortal 1.0.0 RC1 © 2008-2018