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Topic: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping (Read 4036 times) previous topic - next topic
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Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

I am new and this is my first post here, Hello hydrogenaudio community !

I have just recently started creating my own music library since, in the past, I only used to listen on youtube and thus I do not consider myself an expert in audio or a connoisseur. I also haven't found any other satisfying-similar topic, though I searched for it.

At the moment I have around 500 songs, give or take, and I wanted to have a tidy collection from the beginning and therefore I used a software named MusicBrainz Picard for tagging and for the other information needed.

I also needed a software and, in this respect, I searched and found this awesome foobar player which scared me at start but now I cannot stop using it ! I changed its interface according to my taste and installed a couple of components. Here is a view of it so you can make yourself an idea:
 
As you can see from left to right, I have: the folders and the library; down where its not visible is the playlist, artwork, lyrics sections (which are less important now).

When I used MusicBrainz Picard for tagging I was not aware of the fact that there is no 'official' or unanimously way of categorizing music and therefore my music got updated according to this software's standards and database info. For a while I was pleased to have at least some kind of tidiness in my collection.

Now I have thought it over and, because I also want to use my collection skillfully, I made up my mind on how I actually want to have the music arranged and it's much more professional, easy to find, easy to play. It looks like this: genre list .
It makes sense since, this way, I can simply select Electronic if I want to listen to something 'synthetic' or Dance if I want to jump in the living room or Rock if I want to go full Mad Max. But there is also more specific-needed information about their genres.

In this respect, as you see in my picture, I have a problem with Genre tagging and subgenre tagging which my also be known as grouping or contentgroup or style.
I want my music to be like in the genre list I wrote above; with these big genres and then with the subgenres. More specific I want it to be like this:

Main Genre:  Alternative
                                      Subgenres: Art Punk
                                                        Alternative Rock
                                                        College Rock
                                                        Crust Punk
                                                        Experimental Rock            Etc.

As you can see in the first picture only the Rage Against the Machine songs get the Grouping genre being shown by Foobar, it's also true that it is a full album and the only FLAC ones I have as well as the only ones with ID3v4 tags. Nota Bene: this was an error for this album since I don't and won't use FLACs in the future.

- I broadly understand the difference between ID3v1 and ID3v2 but I don't know how they relate to each other.
- Apart from Foobar and MusicBrainz Picard I also have Mp3tag software.
- Unfortunately I do not know any programming languages and therefore I do not know how to make scripts or not even to fully understand them. Here is what I actually did for my scripting : and
- In a way, I want my current Genre category to be considered a Subgenre and the Grouping to be considered Main Genre

In conclusion:
Since this is a Foobar discussion, what is the problem and what should I do ?
Do I have to use other programs such as Mp3tag as well ?
Can this be resolved only with some scripting in Foobar ? If yes can you please provide me with one.

With your help and consideration I am sure I can resolve this issue and share myself this useful information to others.

P.S.  - I am aware of the fact that I might also have to re-tag all my music again, according to the genre list, more likely manually.
       - Discogs Tagger, doesn't work, it gives error.

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #1 –
When it comes down to genre tagging everyone's method is a bit different. Some are basic, some are complex.
This thread has some relevance to your question.

One thing I did notice about the genre reference list (it's good to use a reference) is that some things seem wrong. For instance it has Britpop under Pop music while it's a subclass of Alternative Rock. Same goes for Dream Pop which is a kinda Shoegazy Alternative Rock subclass but I see that one is not added yet but I bet they would put it under Pop music too. Power Pop is Pop-Rock music, not Pop music. The genre Bop is placed under Easy Listening while Bop is just a different word for Bebop and is a Jazz subclass (and certainly not "easy" to listen to). Acid Jazz has nothing to do with Jazz. These are the mistakes I notice at first glance.

I'd advise to use rateyourmusic.com genre list. It's more comprehensive, more detailed, explains what each genre is and is build by consensus by votes instead of singular input.

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #2 –
@jazzthieve

I checked your genre list and indeed it seems a much organized one and I shall use it. The good thing at the moment is that I have a small collection, yet, therefore I should be able to re-tag it and reorganize it relatively easily.

However, I do not understand from the other forum topic what you guys did for the genre tagging. I have to tell you that generally I am a bit slow regarding these things.

You said that you use:
 "-Genre
---1st subgenre
-------2nd subgenre (optional)
----------3rd subgenre (optional) "

But how does your actual script look like, and where do you put it ?
Does it have anything to do with the Preferences > Advanced > Display > Properties dialog > Multivalue fields ?

How can I make my genre appear as a 'Tree genre' list ?

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #3 –
Hi there and welcome,

Just a few observations. From your screens it looks like you are using Default UI, not Columns UI. It is usually one or the other, not both. They are seperate UIs and the settings under Columns UI (your second screen) do not affect anything when using Default UI.

I personally use %genre% and %style% tags to do exactly as you describe. I use %grouping% to divide tracks in an album ("Act 1, Act 2"), and do not get why some programs use grouping for genre, but that is indeed irrelevant. For me these work well since I'm primarily tagging FLAC files (Vorbis Comment), so I try to go by this Tag Mapping document. There is also this ID3 Tag Mapping document as relates to foobar, although I wonder if it is still current and up-to-date(?)

Perhaps %grouping% is a tricky one to use because every program quite likely treats it differently and foobar is probably remapping it.

As to layout... I used Facets with seperate columns for genre - style - artist - album, rather than listing everything in one column, that way you can select a genre and see the list of sub-genres, or styles. I thought about adding mood as well (as listed on AllMusic.com) but that would add a ton of tagging work. ;)

Also, the Playlist Viewer (SimPlaylist in my case as it allows more levels of grouping) might be better to display track %title%(s) rather than Facets. Using the custom grouping schemes (your third screen) can help to group tracks under different headers. I have mine grouped by %codec%, %discsubtitle% and %grouping% tags.

You would probably need to (or want to) re-tag files to get them how you want. For (re)tagging purposes I think foobar is fine. Hard to make recommendations without knowing how your files are tagged. You might cut down some of the work with a library search, for example - %genre% HAS rock - and then review / select the results and tag 'Rock' as the main genre (whatever other field you use).

Cheers 8)

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #4 –
My battery is dying so cannot go into details...

Quote from: Andreescu on
But how does your actual script look like, and where do you put it ?
You put the scripts under Preferences page for that component -

Album List (the default library tree view) = Media Library > Album List
Facets (library column view) = Media Library > Facets

^ You generally go with one or the other (tree or column), they do not really interact.

Quote
Does it have anything to do with the Preferences > Advanced > Display > Properties dialog > Multivalue fields ?
No, that only tells foobar which fields use multiple values. Like genre can be "Funk; Jazz" to show up seperately under both.

Quote
How can I make my genre appear as a 'Tree genre' list ?
Use the default Album List instead of Facets (tree vs column). You can click Library menu > Album List to see it pop-up, or add it to your layout should you prefer it. You would then have to configure the different views under Preferences > Media Library > Album List.

I can help more later but battery is 2% ...

Cheers 8)

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #5 –
If you are getting into maintaining tags and want to more efficiently filter stuff I would highly recommend ditching Tree views (such as the Album list component) and experimenting with Facets or Columns UI filter panels (if you are using CUI). Both which you seem to have already installed.

You can edit your window layout to add or remove them, move things around etc:
https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Layout_Editing_Mode

Where you edit what they show depends on which UI element you picked.
Album list: File/Preferences/Media library/Album list/Views
CUI Filter panels: File/Preferences/Display/Columns UI/Filters/Fields tab
Facets: File/Preferences/Media library/Facets

For Album list you can try something like:
Code: [Select]
%genre%|%subgenre%|%artist%|%album%|%title%
Where %tag% essentially means read from the values of TAG and the pipe character '|' means create a sublevel in your tree structure.

For CUI filter panels or Facets you can just input each tag like this, one tag per row (one for GENRE, one for SUBGENRE etc):
Code: [Select]
%genre%
Then you can add  the CUI filter panels or a single Facets panel to your layout (as mentioned above in that wiki article) and interact with them normally to change what they show (generally right click on their headers to change what they show).

As far as the actual tagging goes I would take a step back though.

Do you enjoy attempting to tag your files academically into a rigid structure through a lot of effort and research? Because that's what you are bringing on yourself attempting to stick very closely to some of these external sites (or using automatic taggers). You will quickly find that they themselves can't settle on a single definition or structure to begin with and they might go into needless detail (for your needs) at all times. Then you get into surprisingly common edge cases like handling artists who hover between two or more genre categories and don't really pick a side on either. Forcing you to basically choose one or the other and disregard valuable information about the other.

(I think) a lot saner approach is to abandon the rigid structure and tag your files with keywords/elements that make sense to YOU. Can you discern your electronic tracks from metal? Then tag them as such ('Electronic' or 'Metal'). Can you discern Synthwave from Drum & Bass within the Electronic genre? Expand the tags of the corresponding tracks in question to reflect as such ('Electronic; Synthwave').

Can you discern the different Metal subgenres? No? Leave your tags as just 'Metal' and save yourself the effort of trying to cram in the entire history of Metal just so you can tag your files "the right way". When you filter your library looking for those "metal tracks", you will think in those terms anyway, not "Avant-garde metal + melodic metalcore + ..." and so on. The beauty of this is when you do get more familiar with the different subgenres, you can quickly find the tags in question and increase detail to the level you think is necessary.

This method also entirely sidesteps the issue of bands belonging to multiple genres (you can tag them with both) or losing the detail on bands that primarily belong to one genre but has influences from another (usually latter detail would be lost). Not to mention lets you and your library grow organically. Also just to make it clear, im not saying you shouldn't look at the external lists (in fact I encourage you to work on your vocabulary to better describe music), but I think you should take them with a grain of salt.

I think at the end of the day your goal should be to architect a system that takes little effort to maintain and efficiently filters the tracks that make sense to you personally.

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #6 –
I would offer 2 tips.

1. the more complex the genre 'solution', the more of a headache it will eventually become (to find albums in the collection) and to categorize albums which fit multiple genres.
Further, extensive sub-genres really only make sense for large collections, or those who tend to collect only one style of music.

2. check out Facets and review the concept/execution of "multiple tags" in foobar:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Components/Facets_(foo_facets)
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,61690.msg550410.html#msg550410

Essentially you can use multiple genres in your tag, which Facets (or most components) can separately list. You can then select them individually or in combination to quickly select segments of your collection eg. Rock+Blues+Psychedelic etc


bonus tip: the best genre solution should be based on something you inherently understand based on your collection; most genres of the past decade have been marketing masturbation designed to alienate older generations or appeal to some tweaked here-today gone-tomorrow youth segment... eg. 'witch house' anyone?!
If one needs a crib-sheet just to figure out the genres tagged, it probably isn't the most flexible/enjoyable solution.
 ::)

edit: errr, what Daeron posted while I was writing

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #7 –
I still have something to ask you but thank you for the information as it was really helpful !
What I understood so far from you guys is:

1. To use a decent inspirational genre database, like rateyourmusic.com  .

2. To not over extend with supra-tagging, to keep it relatively simple .

3.  I am going to use only 2 categorizations. I will use %style% for the 'subgenring' activity as I also think it will be much more recognizable by other players .

4. The explanations for : The Album list / CUI Filter panels / Facets - were really helpful !
    I have already added %genre% to my foobar in Factes and later I am also going to add the %style% .

5. Multivalue field is not worth it if you are not using multiple genres under a single column / %genre% script .
 

I will use Mp3tag for re-organizing my collection by the Main Genre (Rock, Metal, Dance, Electronic, etc.) and I will also need to add tags for the Style (Grunge, Psychedelia, Southern Hip-Hop, etc).

After I have modified my Foobar a little bit, by using Facets and SimPlaylist, I decided to follow these steps:
1. Use Mp3tag for tagging my files as mentioned above.
2. Use Mp3tag to arrange and move my files into folders.

But this raises some questions as I want my music to also be recognizable and playable using other software such as MixTrax which I also use.
For me what matters most and in this order are: Genre, Style (or subgenre), Title, Artist, Album, Year, Stars, BPM.

A) Therefore, should I also do something regarding the Extended Tags (which were deeply modified by MusicBrainz Picard) ?

B) Since I don't use any Albums sorting or playing and only to have a general idea of what album it might be, should I completely delete the Extended Tags or just the ones affecting the genre ? Example: album genre - might get into conflict with the song genre when searching something.

C) Would there be any problem if I am going to modify the files with the ID3v2.4 only and nothing lower ?




Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #8 –
Hey there,

I'm not familar with current MP3tag (though have used it in the past) so I cannot really offer suggestions there, or what to do with extended tags. As for ID3v2.4, best way to know is just test it with the software you want to use and see how it handles it. Tag a file with every field you want to use with v2.4 only. Foobar can do that with right-click on tracks > Tagging > MP3 Tag Types, (only for MP3 files).

Cheers

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #9 –
Why are you using two different apps? Foobar and MP3TAG? Anything MP3Tag can do foobar can do too unless you want to go really advanced and use MP3Tag action scripts.

Re: Request help: Genre tagging and subgenre/style/grouping

Reply #10 –
No worries, I resolved the problem and yes jazzthieve, you are right. I did use Mp3tag for some tagging and script modifying, plus it's much more user friendly regarding tagging cover art.

I am going to use only ID3v2.4 as pretty much all renown software can recognize it.
It's hard work now, pretty much manual tagging but it's the best and I have foobar now to arrange and show me my music collection via 3 different genres.

Thank you all for your help !

P.S. - I will also try to pass on my knowledge to other new initiates.  8)