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Topic: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality (Read 2706 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #50
Something like this lets me just put my hand to the forehead and sigh slightly:
Quote
Posted by Ralph (M) on December 5, 2017 at 13:29:59
In Reply to: RE: Why do you waste your time posting there? posted by John Elison on December 4, 2017 at 22:42:08:

The human ear is far less sensitive than electronic measurement equipment. Therefore, we can measure all sorts of distortion and other things that no human can hear. Everyone knows this. If you think you can hear frequencies that cannot be measured you're delusional.

This is a common myth. IOW, the statement above is false, although if the opening statement were to read something like 'The human ear is **usually** far less sensitive...' it would be more accurate.

We can easily hear some forms of distortion, in particular higher ordered harmonics. The reason for this is that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics on order to sense sound pressure. We have about a 140 db range (although the upper limits will cause damage as you know).

GE proved this back in the 1960s but the implications have been largely ignored to this day. In fact we've had inklings regarding our sensitivity to higher ordered harmonics going back to the 1930s (see Radiotron Designer's Handbook 2nd edition).

The ear converts most forms of distortion to tonality. Most engineers know that the 2nd harmonic of tubes contributes to their 'warmth' or 'richness'. Trace amounts (that can be difficult to measure) of higher ordered harmonics are what make solid state amps sound bright and contributes to harshness.

It is the presence of higher ordered harmonic content in SETs that causes them to sound 'dynamic'. Its my supposition and experience that when audiophiles are using the word 'dynamics' that they are usually talking about distortion and that the two terms can be exchanged without changing the meaning of the conversation. That might sound cynical to some but that's my experience.
Ref.: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1159235.html

This is what I mean with this: This person obviously has never visited a cal lab or any lab dealing with signal analysis.
Go easy on Ralph, he spent a year in a UMinn EE program taking electives, like 50yrs ago. You can't help but see the humor with the Dunning-Kruger audio chumplings. Can't make this stuff up.  ;)
Them "laughing" at us "lofi" folks, with zero cognizance, makes it 10x as funny.  ;D
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  • polemon
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #51
Go easy on Ralph, he spent a year in a UMinn EE program taking electives, like 50yrs ago. You can't help but see the humor with the Dunning-Kruger audio chumplings. Can't make this stuff up.  ;)
Hmm, I don't know, I certainly hope I don't end up having a degree worth nothing in 50 years...

Them "laughing" at us "lofi" folks, with zero cognizance, makes it 10x as funny.  ;D
To be honest, I don't think this is funny at all. I think this is a little bit sad, but otherwise it's just uncomfortable, and tbh, I don't see why this is a place to discuss "them".
What's essentially happening here, is HA pointing fingers at AA, while they do the same thing. Who's right and wrong is not important at this point anymore, because both side behave like idiots, and to be honest, I'm kinda ashamed of that.

I'd rather be the smart person and don't interact with these people, and simply ignore them and their forum.

There is zero reason for laughing at them or calling them names, we might discuss the subject matter they present, but that's about it, really. I have no intentions wasting time on them.

If this is a science and technology based forum, let's discuss science and technology, rather than the typical "look at them! such idots, hahaha!" It brings absolutely nothing.

  • EekWit
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #52
With all due respect -- listening tests are a waste of time.
When choosing an amplifier or CD player, I agree entirely. The problems which CD players and amplifiers are supposed to solve have only a single correct solution. You get closer to that solution by minimizing distortion etc. If measuring performance with respect to distortion etc. is quicker and easier than listening tests, why bother with listening tests?

Obviously, when talking about speakers, headphones and listening environment it is a different matter.

  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #53
If measuring performance with respect to distortion etc. is quicker and easier than listening tests, why bother with listening tests?
Because without them, you have no way of establishing audibility thresholds for what you're measuring. That shouldn't be a difficult concept on this site. 100x lower than thresholds gains nothing, except silly ad material for the clueless.
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  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #54
Hmm, I don't know, I certainly hope I don't end up having a degree worth nothing in 50 years...
My guess is you got a bit further than electives and may have a bit more retention.  ;)

To be honest, I don't think this is funny at all.
I do. Having met countless in person, hearing their D-K jewelry, being immersed in the voodoo, makes for some serious fun.
Try it, you'll see. :D
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  • EekWit
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #55
Because without them, you have no way of establishing audibility thresholds for what you're measuring. That shouldn't be a difficult concept on this site. 100x lower than thresholds gains nothing, except silly ad material for the clueless.
I don't know much/anything about the current state of the amplifier market in the US. Is distortion below the threshold of audibility available to the middle 90% of the market?

  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #56
Is distortion below the threshold of audibility available to the middle 90% of the market?
Perhaps you can quantify distortion, % THD, which is a specific metric, as we have been discussing, Cosmik.
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  • EekWit
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #57
Perhaps you can quantify distortion, % THD, which is a specific metric, as we have been discussing, Cosmik.
I'm referring to all of the side-effects induced by the amplifier in addition to doing what it is supposed to do - amplifying the signal. If THD is a suitable metric then yes I'm referring to THD.

  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #58
If THD is a suitable metric then yes I'm referring to THD.
If? You don't know? Have you been following the discussion, from page 1?
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  • EekWit
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #59
If? You don't know? Have you been following the discussion, from page 1?
I think you misunderstand me. The reason I ask questions on HA instead of other forums is because I want answers from people who know what they're talking about.

I have a purely amateur interest in audio tech, as do many people. However, unlike many other amateurs on the internet, I don't like to chuck around technical terms whose meaning I don't fully understand. E.g. total harmonic distortion. If I describe what I'm referring to in lay terms then there is less chance of talking garbage.

You still haven't answered my question: is THD below the threshold of audibility available to the middle 90% of the US amplifier market?

  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #60
My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003%
With all due respect -- listening tests are a waste of time.
When choosing an amplifier or CD player, I agree entirely.

I think you misunderstand me.
There is nothing to misunderstand. You agree with the nonsense posted by the OP.

You still haven't answered my question: is THD below the threshold of audibility available to the middle 90% of the US amplifier market?
Because Cosmik, you still haven't answered my question as to quantifying THD. You don't get to shift the goal posts. If it's the number mmrkaic threw out..and you agreed with, I now need to see your valid listening tests establishing such thresholds. Otherwise, your "question" has no relevance (never mind the specious cultural aspect)
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  • EekWit
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #61
My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003%
With all due respect -- listening tests are a waste of time.
When choosing an amplifier or CD player, I agree entirely.
Those two statements by mmrkaic were in two differents posts. Don't wilfully misrepresent me.

If THD is a poor metric for quantifying audibility of distortion then you are free to suggest another. Others exist.

Regarding the relevance of my question. If a large part of the market consists of amplifiers with audible (defined according to results of listening tests in published papers) levels of distortion then using measurements is a valid means to inform a purchase. Suppose that within your budget all candidate amplifiers have levels of distortion audible to the average listener. It is then a valid strategy to order the candidates according to their measurements and pick the best.

  • mmrkaic
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #62
My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003%
With all due respect -- listening tests are a waste of time.
When choosing an amplifier or CD player, I agree entirely.

I think you misunderstand me.
There is nothing to misunderstand. You agree with the nonsense posted by the OP.

You still haven't answered my question: is THD below the threshold of audibility available to the middle 90% of the US amplifier market?
Because Cosmik, you still haven't answered my question as to quantifying THD. You don't get to shift the goal posts. If it's the number mmrkaic threw out..and you agreed with, I now need to see your valid listening tests establishing such thresholds. Otherwise, your "question" has no relevance (never mind the specious cultural aspect)

Dude, I am one of those who post sense here, while You keep avoiding numbers and measurements. Are you are subjectivist at heart?

Listening tests of amplifiers, CDs, DACs etc are a waste of time if those devices are well designed and built. We also know the lower bound of sound pressure that is audible. There is nothing more listening tests can do.

Incidentally, I have a question for you. Ralf Atmasphere studied one year of EE 50 years ago. What did you study?

  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #63
There is subtle point here: 0.03% might not be audible
Let's see if you and Cosmik can figure out how...
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  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #64
If THD is a poor metric for quantifying audibility
How would you find out?
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  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #65
We also know the lower bound of sound pressure that is audible.
How do "we" know this? Using what method? Keep in mind: "With all due respect -- listening tests are a waste of time."

Btw, 0.003% THD isn't "sound pressure"
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  • EekWit
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #66
If THD is a poor metric for quantifying audibility
How would you find out?
I would look at the results of controlled listening tests published in reputable journals.

With all due respect -- listening tests are a waste of time.
When choosing an amplifier or CD player, I agree entirely.
Look at what I actually said.

  • mmrkaic
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #67
Dude, I frigging know that THD is not sound pressure. But one of the easiest things for someone with a masters in physics (me) is to go from THD to sound pressure. 
  • Last Edit: 06 December, 2017, 11:08:07 AM by mmrkaic

  • mmrkaic
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #68
We also know the lower bound of sound pressure that is audible.
How do "we" know this? Using what method? Keep in mind: "With all due respect -- listening tests are a waste of time."

Btw, 0.003% THD isn't "sound pressure"

Dude, I have a strong suspicion that you know very little science.
I

  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #69
I would look at the results of controlled listening tests published in reputable journals.
Great, so I guess listening tests are important before they are not. When you find those results, then you can answer your own question: You still haven't answered my question: is THD below the threshold of audibility available to the middle 90% of the US amplifier market?

Good luck with your search, come back when you find something meaningful about THD
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  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #70
Dude, I frigging know that THD is not sound pressure. But one of the easiest things for someone with a masters in physics (me) is to go from THD to sound pressure. 
So is 0.03% audible? Vs 0.003%? Let's see your evidence and how it was determined without those useless listening tests.
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  • mmrkaic
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #71
Dude, I frigging know that THD is not sound pressure. But one of the easiest things for someone with a masters in physics (me) is to go from THD to sound pressure. 
So is 0.03% audible? Vs 0.003%? Let's see your evidence and how it was determined without those useless listening tests.

I can do the math for you, you clearly cannot do it yourself. Listening tests to establish the threshold of audible sound pressure were done years ago. Only an amateur would keep repeating the same experiments instead of using the results.

Which leads me to ask you: why are you afraid to answer my question— what did you study?

  • krabapple
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #72
Listening tests of amplifiers, CDs, DACs etc are a waste of time if those devices are well designed and built. We also know the lower bound of sound pressure that is audible. There is nothing more listening tests can do.


See, it isn't so hard to properly qualify a claim, is it?


  • krabapple
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #73
What's essentially happening here, is HA pointing fingers at AA, while they do the same thing. Who's right and wrong is not important at this point anymore, because both side behave like idiots, and to be honest, I'm kinda ashamed of that.


Yikes, this reminds me of election season.  "Both sides are just as bad...."

Anyway, you get to feel that way, and others get to feel that 'what's right and wrong' is still  (more) important.


  • ajinfla
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Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality
Reply #74
Dude, I frigging know that THD is not sound pressure. But one of the easiest things for someone with a masters in physics (me) is to go from THD to sound pressure. 
So is 0.03% audible? Vs 0.003%? Let's see your evidence and how it was determined without those useless listening tests.
I can do the math for you,
Great, lets see your THD audibility thresholds "math". Ought to be a doozy  :))

Which leads me to ask you: why are you afraid to answer my question— what did you study?
Reading comprehension.

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