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Topic: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology (Read 8296 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • KozmoNaut
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #25
To prefer form over function is just fetishism. To disguise this fetishism condescendingly as a superior experience is laughable. Vinyl is a joke.

Listening to vinyl is a bit like insisting on riding a fixie bicycle everywhere or making your own old-fashioned castile soap. It's laborious and objectively worse when compared to modern alternatives, but it does have a certain silly retro charm to it.

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #26
To prefer form over function is just fetishism. To disguise this fetishism condescendingly as a superior experience is laughable. Vinyl is a joke.

I'm not a robot, so for many thing I do prefer form over function. Cars, watches, art... I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm not quite sure why it riles people so much.

I know a Toyota Prius is cheaper, safer and more fuel efficient than my car - but I still prefer the experience of mine.
I know a quartz watch keeps better time, is cheaper and more reliable than mine, but I still like my nice mechanical watch.
I know that a VST synthesizer sounds similar to the real thing, is cheaper and way more convenient, but I still like the physicality and the way I interact with the real things.
I know my records are not quite the quality of a digital system, but I still prefer the experience of listening to them.

I don't see the problem with any of those statements. I am an electrical design engineer, every single day I work on electrical systems on front of a computer. I certainly don't want tied to another PC/Phone/etc. when I listen to music. It's my preference really.

But I suppose you could make another argument that at least half of the music I own is not available on any other format than vinyl. I guess I should change my musical taste too :-D

I find it funny that I am viewed as the elitist, when in reality almost everyone in this thread is annoyed that I'm not listening to my music in the 'best possible quality'. However you find a way to best enjoy music, I don't care. Be it FLAC, MP3, MiniDisk or vinyl, the pros and cons of all are a well understood subject now.
  • Last Edit: 28 November, 2017, 05:04:37 AM by Funkstar De Luxe

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #27
In the internet there are a lot of forums for every imaginable fetish. I think the problem is not that you have a certain fetish,  of what I couldn't care less, it's that I think this forum is more about science.
I think Hoffman's forum, for example, will be much more sympathetic with your inclinations.

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #28
In the internet there are a lot of forums for every imaginable fetish. I think the problem is not that you have a certain fetish,  of what I couldn't care less, it's that I think this forum is more about science.
I think Hoffman's forum, for example, will be much more sympathetic with your inclinations.


Exactly. That however does not excuse the tone of the arguments and hostility pitted against me. And from a moderator no less. I offered my opinion, nothing more. To assert that I implied that I was the only person who knew how to listen to music, or that I was implying that digital formats can only be listened to on shuffle is absurd. Lots of fragile egos here now, who can't seem to handle an opinion gently opposed to their own.

If you guys want to have a circle jerk about how terrible vinyl is, then fine, but don't get all bent out of shape when you receive a contradictory reply to topics which quite literally state "So, what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?".

And no, I think there may be a middle ground between the measurement nazis here and the snake oil salesmen of the Hoffman forums. Something are good enough.

Rant not aimed at you, ShostakovichPosts :-)
  • Last Edit: 28 November, 2017, 08:39:26 AM by Funkstar De Luxe

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #29
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

Where did I speak about the foibles of digital audio?
You must be really dense.  ::)
Btw, I have a TT also. BFD
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #30
I love how it's OK to infer that I'm angry and/or annoyed but not OK to infer, gently, that someone is being "such " a dense hypocrite.
  • Last Edit: 28 November, 2017, 10:23:28 AM by greynol
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • 4season
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #31
To prefer form over function is just fetishism.

Now that's pretty extreme, and I'd argue that delivering a certain enjoyment can be a function too, albeit a subjective one.

  • Audible!
  • [*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #32
Quote from: Funkstar De Luxe
Lots of fragile egos here now, who can't seem to handle an opinion gently opposed to their own.

It's clearly a reflexive (and rather dramatic) overreaction based on long experience with "audiophile" woo.
This is fairly understandable, given the pervasiveness of abject nonsense one encounters even casually looking at audio subject matter on the old series of tubes.

As such, an indication that someone might prefer the subjective experience of listening to a medium, even if they openly state it's technically inferior in every respect, will be confronted with overwhelming rhetorical force since it smacks of said woo. It seems like it would behoove some folks to not take things so personally...

It would be interesting to compare this thread with discussions about preferences in transducer equipment.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume someone expressing a preference for a technically inferior speaker over objectively superior options would not encounter anything like the kind of reaction seen in this thread.

"I prefer the experience of listening to my Tivoli model 1 radio over that of my Paradigm Prestige 95 floorstanders. The Tivoli is obviously much inferior in frequency response and distortion, but something about the constraining experience of the little speaker and manual dial appeals to me; if you like the experience of your B&W 804s, more power to you."

<crickets>

Quote from: greynol
I love how it's OK to infer that I'm angry and/or annoyed but not OK to infer, gently, that someone is being "such " a dense hypocrite.
The curse of a sunny disposition I'm afraid. :D

  • cliveb
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  • Developer
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #33
It is with some trepidation that I offer this opinion, but here goes anyway...

I think Funkstar might have something of a point when he talks about not browsing the net or skipping tracks when listening to vinyl. My hypothesis is that the effort involved in playing an LP has a psychological effect that encourages the listener to pay more attention so that the effort they've just expended doesn't get squandered.

This is a scientific forum, but psychology is still a science of some sort, isn't it? (Not proper science like maths or physics, of course  ;) )

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #34
No, no. It was entirely a personal foible.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • EekWit
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #35
Isn't the comparison of vinyl and iPod a false one anyway? CD is the digital equivalent of vinyl and is almost as inconvenient when listened to on a traditional hifi setup.

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #36
I offer this opinion..
Right, a lot of vinylphiles also hold that "opinion". In fact, they tend to parrot it in every discussion like this, almost as if it were some sort of evidence based fact. It isn't.
Trying to justify ones preference with specious claims goes beyond mere opinion.
No need for anything other than "I prefer vinyl sound". That's it. No big deal, a lot of old timers do.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #37
Psychology is no longer a science once you strike the ology portion.

Damn that pesky evidence!
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #38
Right, a lot of vinylphiles also hold that "opinion". In fact, they tend to parrot it in every discussion like this, almost as if it were some sort of evidence based fact. It isn't.
Not even when it is self-fulfilling? There is certainly a rich literature on placebo, confirmation bias and internal commitment mechanisms.

I guess most of us above a certain age, have put been through the rite: put on an LP and listen to the music while you open the gatefold cover and have a look at the artwork. If that makes you focus more on the product, it is likely not due to the audio part.
(And to those who have heard a boring bootleg of a show that was great ...)


  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #39
Not even when it is self-fulfilling?
Nothing "self-fulfilling" about vinylphile parroted claims about ADD, playing games, skipping tracks and all that BS.
They like vinyl because that's the "sound" they prefer, period. A lot of old timers do.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • 2Bdecided
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  • Developer
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #40
So, I started listening to a recording of Rachmaninoff 2 by Entremont and could not finish because of all the popping and noise. (And I like Entremont and the way he does Rachmaninoff.) Then I listened to another LP -- Symphony No. 5 by Shostakovitch. There was less popping and noise and it was passable. I managed to listen to the whole piece.
"Typical" pop/rock tends to hide the background noise. Unless the record is worn or damaged (most used records are), vinyl is good enough.

I don't know how classical fans coped in the vinyl era. Unless the record is mint, most dynamic classical music is unlistenable on vinyl. I can tolerate classical 78s with their constant background noise more easily than classical LPs with clicks and pops. Wow and flutter can be an audible problem on classical piano music at a level that wouldn't trouble most other genres.

People don't always wear clothes that are most comfortable or best suited to the climate they live in. Similarly people don't always use the audio medium best suited to listening to music ;-)

Cheers,
David.

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #41
Not even when it is self-fulfilling?
Nothing "self-fulfilling" about vinylphile parroted claims about ADD, playing games, skipping tracks and all that BS.
They like vinyl because that's the "sound" they prefer, period. A lot of old timers do.

I suggest you go back to what you quoted and read "effort [...] has a psychological effect". Nothing about sound in that.

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #42
I don't know how classical fans coped in the vinyl era. Unless the record is mint, most dynamic classical music is unlistenable on vinyl.

Pretty much like how they coped with concerts and live audience? By trying to listen to the music and ignore annoyances?

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #43
I suggest you go back to what you quoted and read "effort [...] has a psychological effect". Nothing about sound in that.
I suggest you comprehend what is written, or get help from someone who can.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #44
Pretty much like how they coped with concerts and live audience? By trying to listen to the music and ignore annoyances?
But obviously not the urge to play games, skip tracks, spew red herrings
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #45
I suggest you comprehend what is written, or get help from someone who can.
Why cannot I do what you did, namely cut the quote down to the part you thought you could deciphre?

Everyone else can have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Paradigms

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #46
Why cannot I do what you did
Because you have zero evidence and only vinylphile BS speculation. That's why.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • Audible!
  • [*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #47
 ??? :o Someone has said something mildly positive about their subjective preference for a technically inferior recording medium!

Slaughter the livestock! 
Burn the crops!
Salt the fields!

 >:(  All shall suffer my wroth!  >:(

  • McGlear
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #48
I think the reasons for the percieved superiority of vinyl might lie elsewhere entirely: Crappy mastering for the CD release!
There are examples where the CD release is based on an overcompressed, loudness-focused master, while the vinyl release is targeted at a different group of customers (namely those self-proclaimed audiophiles with real loudspeakers in a quiet living room) and thus the vinyl doesn't need the overcompression that's usually required for cheap, small headphones or car radios...

  • KozmoNaut
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #49
I think the reasons for the percieved superiority of vinyl might lie elsewhere entirely: Crappy mastering for the CD release!
There are examples where the CD release is based on an overcompressed, loudness-focused master, while the vinyl release is targeted at a different group of customers (namely those self-proclaimed audiophiles with real loudspeakers in a quiet living room) and thus the vinyl doesn't need the overcompression that's usually required for cheap, small headphones or car radios...

I've seen this theory a number of times (and I used to believe it myself), but I have not seen any definite proof at all. Nothing points to this being a common practice at all.

Most of the time, it seems to stem from a misunderstanding of DR values posted to http://dr.loudness-war.info, without accounting for the fact that calculating DR values from LPs is akin to black magic and very prone to faults.

I have checked a number of albums I own on both CD and LP and as far as I can tell, the actual dynamic range is extremely close or identical, pointing to the fact that they have been created from the exact same master, clippression and all, in some cases. So far, I have only found a single album (Lamb of God - VII: Sturm und Drang) where the LP may have been created from a different master, but it isn't 100% conclusive.

The vast majority of LP releases are simply cash grabs, intended to extract additional cash from fans, by offering a seemingly endless array of "limited edition" colored vinyl releases, with false promises of higher sound quality and fake collectibility. Fortunately, this fad seems to be winding down. Hopefully I will manage to sell off all of my modern LPs before the prices crash.