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  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #75
Right, washing the record made my preamp stable.
You can't fix stupid.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • PRTLA
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #76
what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?

Hi everyone mi point of view as a Dj: the difference for the public about a dj mixing with cds or laptop vs vinyl consist on skills, if you are playing with cds or laptops the screen helps you a lot and on some cases you can even cheat the hole set, that is the reason why on the club culture a Dj playing on vinyl gets so respected and better pay, cause it’s your ears that really show your skills, total domination of humanity over  (analog) technology, rather than digital technology that makes you look cool but with no skills, but that it’s the point, just for listeners; becomes more subjective the like or not of the sound and the status that you feel buying a vinyl for your personal use. I see it like producers that want to work only with vintage consoles without using DAWs.

Thanks

  • Atmasphere
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #77
If you really think I was saying
Right, washing the record made my preamp stable.

Then as you say
Quote
You can't fix stupid.





  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #78
If you really think I was saying
My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any.
Then as you say
You can't fix stupid.
Bingo!
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #79
"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.

Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • polemon
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #80
"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.


Hey now, I know of one analogue, stylus-read systems that actually contain no audible artifacts, usually associated with Vinyl - well, two, but that's kinda stretching it.

Let's start with the less-known one: SIGSALY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGSALY)
SIGSALY was wa WW2 era voice encryption system, which also pionered vocoders. The "key" were two identical phonographic records playing in tandem at both ends of the transmission line. These records were often made of materials, such as metals, or metalized surfaces.

The other one I know of - and I assume several other people know of, too, is the time speaking clock. They used records and vinyls which were pretty much impervious to static electricity, but wore out much faster - this is obviously back in the day, when the speaking clock system was implemented using record players, etc.

The record player had three styluses, one for hours, one for minutes and one for seconds, along with the sentence parts, to actually speak a full sentence containing the time, down to the next ten seconds. The marker blip was generated by the electronics. These styluses would wear out pretty quickly, and had to be replaced quite often. As I understand it, the disc was made such that the stylus would be worn out by the disc, and not the other way round.

This system has been later replaced by one that utilizes endless loops of tape.

Some weirder and more obscure systems used a magnetic disc with three styluses: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Zeitansage_Gestell3_mit_Magnetplatte_600_785.jpg

But yeah, there you go, record player systems that don't crackle, pop, etc.
Should be noted that in both examples, the discs and the styluses had to be replaced very frequently, it's sacrificing longevity for audio quality, etc.

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #81
Aha, now we have it. In utter desperation, you are now basing your argument on Cliffs "opinion/Hypothesis", to support Funkstars nonsense.

Me?

Are you denying that it was you who posted #36 in this thread which quoted cliveb (and not Funkstar)?
Are you denying that this very #36 was the posting I quoted you on?
Are you denying that you made up a false quote to make it look otherwise?


IOW, as predicted by Dunning-Kruger, you have no evidence
Are you denying that everyone who can read this thread has plenty of evidence that you are lying?

...on a non-believer/evidence based forum.
Are you lying because you make rational trade-offs between the detrimental effects of truthtelling vs. of lying to your standing on an "evidence based forum"?

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #82
Me?

I guess most of us above a certain age, have put been through the rite: put on an LP and listen to the music while you open the gatefold cover and have a look at the artwork. If that makes you focus more on the product, it is likely not due to the audio part.
Right, you. Old timer. Parroting. Zero evidence. Dunning Kruger.

lying to your standing on an "evidence based forum"?

Nope, laughing...at you. The zero cognizance part. Funny.  ;)
Again, feel free to reach behind, pull out your evidence for this "focus" for vinyl vs digital.
No "hypothesis". Not "opinion". Not "Likely". Evidence. Peer reviewed, controlled viable evidence. Otherwise, you're full of baloney.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #83

For more on this phenomena, Jim Hagerman has an excellent tutorial on his site:

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html


One can tell something about another's expertise by observing what they accept to be true.

The Hagerman article has a serious flaw in its model of a cartridge. It does not include the mechanical side of the cartridge which is prone to have non-flat response all by itself. 

The non-flat response comes from the presence of at least two additional intercoupled mass-spring-damper subsystems. One is formed by the mass of the stylus tip and the compliance of the LP itself, and the other is formed by the flexibility of the cantalever and the mass of the generator part of the cartridge - the coil for MC and the magnet or reluctor for a  MM or VR cartridges.

Some cartridges have an additional mass-spring damper system that is a classic vibration absorber - a weight on the end of a small springy rod that is usually buried inside the cantilever.

This becomes especially important when the mechanical side of the cartridge is tuned to compensate for its own resonances or the resonances of the electrical side.

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #84
Me?

I guess most of us above a certain age, have put been through the rite: put on an LP and listen to the music while you open the gatefold cover and have a look at the artwork. If that makes you focus more on the product, it is likely not due to the audio part.
Again, everyone who can click a snapback can check the true contents of the posting.  (And in case it should expire, I have archived the entire thread.)

I wonder, when was the last time I saw a manufacturer of sound reproduction gear promote themselves with such dishonesty.
What is the brand you are representing, ajinfla? Please say it is not Meridian.

  • kode54
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  • Administrator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #85
Be thankful people here click the quote post button and use it. I know someone who runs their own phpBB forum, and they manually quote posts using angle braces, like they're typing out an email. Mainly because they break up the quotes and reply to each individual sentence, and it's apparently not worth the effort to copy and paste the open quote tag for the quote block for each segment of original text.

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #86
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

I think Funkstar might have something of a point when he talks about not browsing the net or skipping tracks when listening to vinyl. My hypothesis is that the effort involved in playing an LP has a psychological effect that encourages the listener to pay more attention so that the effort they've just expended doesn't get squandered.

It is a well-known cognitive bias. Even a paradigm in the study of such. Even more than confirmation bias.
But vinyl lovers sometimes even confess to it.

Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #87
He didn't post that picture and has the incriminating shapshot to prove it, Mr. Pantsonfire.

...being short even a modicum of evidence to support his psychology daydream theories not withstanding.
  • Last Edit: 03 December, 2017, 12:29:40 AM by greynol
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • old tech
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #88
There is still reason to have vinyl (or at least recordings digitised from a vinyl record).  Some of the more obscure music from days gone is only available on vinyl and sometimes certain albums can subjectively sound better on vinyl.

The subjectivity part is quite important as not everyone would agree whether one version sounds better than another.  If the vinyl came from a different master, it is likely to have different EQ and compression applied which will change the sound, which may sound better to some but not to others.  I agree that most vinyl over past 30 years was likely made from the same CD master, but sometimes to my ears, if the digital mastering was brickwalled and loud the lower resolution vinyl seems to take the edge off it.  If both are mastered well then to my ears the CD always comes out ahead, particularly around clarity, separation of instruments and sound articulation in the lower and upper frequencies.

As some have pointed out, the ritual involved in playing a record can be more involving (using more of our senses) and if you like that sort of thing, the listener can perceive vinyl to sound better, even though it doesn't on any objective basis.  It can also work in the opposite direction if, like me, you find the record playing ritual a pita.  I actually find it hard to relax listening to a record being played as it is always in the back of mind having to get up to change sides or to move the stylus when it gets to the inevitable crappy track.  That is why I have digitised my records, it allows a more convenient and stress free listening experience.

The other thing I noticed is that most people that subjectively perceive vinyl to sound better are those over 60 years of age.  It kind of makes sense as it is the sound and procedure they grew up with.  One example is the old 50s tube radio I grew up with.  I still have it in my study and sometimes play in in the background.  When a song is played from 60s/70s that I got to know on that radio as a child, it takes me back to that time, a pleasant connection that I don't get when playing those same songs in high fidelity.

Lastly, at 60 years of age, your ears are in decline as far as hearing detail over masking and is less sensitive to noise and higher frequencies.  Many of the fidelity advantages of digital probably cannot be appreciated as it would with a younger set of ears.

  • krabapple
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #89
I grew up with vinyl, put together a decent enough playback rig, but still thanked the stars when CD appeared, and have never had the desire to go back.  I'm not yet 60 but not far from it.

Also, much of the current renaissance of vinyl has been driven by hipster (i.e., youth) faddism for retro technology. 



  • Last Edit: 03 December, 2017, 05:33:42 AM by krabapple

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #90
There is still reason to have vinyl (or at least recordings digitised from a vinyl record).  Some of the more obscure music from days gone is only available on vinyl and sometimes certain albums can subjectively sound better on vinyl.
Yep, only reason I have a TT.

However, I've heard a >3 vinylphiles rumor that vinyl ritualism creates a mesmerizing laser like focus, unlike the automatic induced ADD of digital.
I then check into this rumor myself, as I don't just accept other's. So I have verified using the little Johnny method to my own satisfaction, that parroted rumors can be are correct.
It is a now well-known, established cognitive bias. Even a paradigm in the study of such. Psychology fact, not fiction.
  • Last Edit: 03 December, 2017, 07:10:12 AM by ajinfla
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #91
[another fake]

Y'know, I might have chosen the wrong paradigm. I was thinking of the IKEA effect (google it - I am inside the paywall, so the DOI won't help you get access), but maybe the classic Festinger and Carlsmith forced compliance study is more relevant to this thread.
Therein, volunteers were asked to do some boring task and then lie to the next person about how interesting it is, for a compensation randomized to either $1 or $20.  As it turns out, the $1 group did perceive the task as more rewarding.
An interpretation would be that those who have to do the task of flipping vinyl discs all the time for basically nothing (the rest of us get at least the same from pushing a button), need to deceive themselves into an imaginary reward - which is not necessary for those who receive a monetary payoff for lying, like the dishonest hifi salesman.

And in real-life, people can even self-select into the dishonest salesman profession if they find lying rewarding in itself. Again, ajinfla: which company are you trying to market?

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #92
ajinfla: which company are you trying to market?
Its called vinyl psychology for parrots
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • dneern
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #93
If you don't have the ability to just sit down and pay attention to a piece of music, and appreciate it, regardless of the format, then it's not about you. You're not the audience. You're ancillary, but not important. Nobody who makes music is thinking about you and what you like when they're making their art.
  • Last Edit: 03 December, 2017, 01:18:22 PM by dneern

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #94
You're not buying vinylphile hypotheses about vinyl is known for creating deep concentration, while digital is well established for causing Attention Deficit Disorder ?

Well how's this for proof!


Btw, do you know I sell loudspeakers? It's very relevant here.
Oink.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #95
Whoever told you that trolling actually improves your standing, was probably right.

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #96
yelling your usual textstrings. And cutting away everything you had not the intellectual ability to digest.

you liar

I wonder, when was the last time I saw a manufacturer of sound reproduction gear promote themselves with such dishonesty.
What is the brand you are representing, ajinfla? Please say it is not Meridian.

...and you're doing what, exactly?
  • Last Edit: 03 December, 2017, 03:36:33 PM by greynol
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • Porcus
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #97
Of course I know I am taking the bait. I have seen flamewars before, and I am the Archivist of this ménagerie.

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #98
You're doing more than just that, and the rest of us thank you for it.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • krabapple
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #99
 Your HA (i.e. 'objectivist') bona fides are all well documented here, guys.   So why the triangular firing squad?  Slow week?  ::)