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  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #100
Your HA (i.e. 'objectivist') bona fides are all well documented here, guys.
Certainly better documented than the posterior-derived psychological theories about ADD and various music delivery methods.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #101
As a consolation of sorts, this thread has at least managed to become some obscure placebophile community's pet peeve - misquotations, "mine-is-bigger-than-yours"* hissy fits and all: :D

"Once again made the mistake of looking at Hydrogen Audio forums"




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I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.

If only Freud and Jung were alive!
  • Last Edit: 04 December, 2017, 10:50:03 AM by includemeout
Listen to the music, not the media.

  • Wombat
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #102
The OP simply sucessfully started what is so easy with the hydrogen crowd. Mission accomplished.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

  • mmrkaic
  • [*][*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #103
As a consolation of sorts, this thread has at least managed to become some obscure placebophile community's pet peeve - misquotations, "mine-is-bigger-than-yours"* hissy fits and all: :D

"Once again made the mistake of looking at Hydrogen Audio forums"




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Quote
I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.

If only Freud and Jung were alive!


Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say? Their views are irrelevant as is their forum.

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #104
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say?
Isn't your "interesting" quoted above already reason enough?

Mine? Make no mistake: it's just for kicks!
  • Last Edit: 04 December, 2017, 11:14:10 AM by includemeout
Listen to the music, not the media.

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #105
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say? Their views are irrelevant as is their forum.
Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much. That was a hilarious link, thanks to includemeout.
Among the Dunning-Kruger forums, the very aptly named Asylum is perhaps the most hysterical.
IIRC, our old friend makeup man Scotty used to post here. Haven't seen him in a while, much to my dismay. His abilities to make up stuff is unmatched.  ;)
Ever wonder what a Dunning-Krugers system looks like? Check this out https://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3229.html
You really need to attend some audio jewelry DK events and meet some of these deaf delusional old freaks, or get to hear their horrible systems. I have, literally hundreds. It's worth it!
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • mmrkaic
  • [*][*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #106
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say?
Isn't your "interesting" quoted above already reason enough?

Mine? Make no mistake: it's just for kicks!

I'm no being argumentative here and I thank you for the link. It is interesting to see how those dudes think.

  • mmrkaic
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #107
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say?
Isn't your "interesting" quoted above already reason enough?

Mine? Make no mistake: it's just for kicks!

At first I found them annoying, but now I think it actually is fun to read.

  • greynol
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #108
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • krabapple
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #109

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #110
When he says, on that other thread, something in the lines of "I visit HA once in a blue moon" just to make clear he only does it for fun, that must be the mother of all understatements!

The guy practically keeps HA on his second monitor! Talk about having a bee in one's bonnet!

Edit: oops! that was the other guy! My bad!
Anyway, Ralph is such a hypocrite coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
  • Last Edit: 04 December, 2017, 04:09:14 PM by includemeout
Listen to the music, not the media.

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #111
Typical double-standards. Shame on you, dude! @Atmasphere 
Listen to the music, not the media.

  • Atmasphere
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #112
@includemeout  what's the double standard?

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coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
You misquoted me. Here is the exact quote
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I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.


BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%; not bad for open loop (the output of the amp is direct-coupled).  It lacks the 2nd order harmonic that is common with tube amps as the circuit is fully differential and balanced from input to output (even ordered harmonics canceled at each stage, not just the output) and supports AES file 48 (as do our balanced preamps).


  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #113
Ah, you're that Atma-sphere.
Luckily I'm not one who thinks tubes are "bad".
But the cartridge comment was pretty stupid. AA elitist ignorant-dumb.

BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%;
That's fine, whats the output impedance look like?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • old tech
  • [*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #114
@includemeout  what's the double standard?

Quote
coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
You misquoted me. Here is the exact quote
Quote
I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.


BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%; not bad for open loop (the output of the amp is direct-coupled).  It lacks the 2nd order harmonic that is common with tube amps as the circuit is fully differential and balanced from input to output (even ordered harmonics canceled at each stage, not just the output) and supports AES file 48 (as do our balanced preamps).
How linear is the 2hz to 100khz response?

  • Atmasphere
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #115
Ah, you're that Atma-sphere.
Luckily I'm not one who thinks tubes are "bad".
But the cartridge comment was pretty stupid. AA elitist ignorant-dumb.
I discovered that preamp stability played a role in ticks and pops about 30 years ago. I was dumbfounded but it was easy enough to demonstrate. If that is what you are referring to as 'AA elitist ignorant-dumb' then I disagree. The cost of the phono section has nothing to do with it (so there goes the elitist bit) and the dumb part seems to be getting people to understand how this phenomena occurs. I'm not the only one who has sorted this out by any means- Nelson Pass' phono sections are quite stable and the same phenomena of less ticks and pops is audible in his gear as well.

If you look at the schematic of most any Japanese phono section, you will see easily why many of them are unstable. For starters they lack any sort of stopping resistors, which are a mitigating factor in circuit stability.

BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%;
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That's fine, whats the output impedance look like?
You may or may not know this in already, but OTLs in general are known for a high output impedance and this being one of the smaller OTLs made, is pretty high. So speaker selection is critical, but its pretty happy on a 16 ohm load generally speaking. Its output impedance is about 8 ohms. The output impedance curve looks just like the frequency response curve- no timing constants in the output to mess things up.

If lower impedance speakers are to be used with this model we frequently advise the use of an outboard autoformer that converts from 16 ohms down to 2,3 or 4 ohms. Because of its low turns ratio, it actually has wider bandwidth than the amp.

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How linear is the 2hz to 100khz response?

If you mean, is it flat across that band, it is; well within 1/2db, -3 db at the specified limits. The 2 Hz cutoff is defined by a coupling cap between the voltage amp and direct-coupled driver (squarewave tilt is unmeasurable at 20Hz); in our larger amps we cut it off at 1Hz. The upper limit is defined by the bandwidth of the voltage amp; we can run it higher easily but in practice this seems to be a good limit.

Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #116
@includemeout  what's the double standard?

Quote
coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
You misquoted me. Here is the exact quote
Quote
I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.
Or, as I'd innitially quoted on the afore-mentioned, earlier reply:

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I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.
As @ajinfla has already said, that was pretty stupid - not to mention arrogant too.

As for the double standard, all this pretending you were engaging into serious debate here just to dutifuly report to your comrades over there makes it quite obvious what I meant, doesn't it?

Anyway, the internet is notoriously free, for you to do as you please - whatever rocks your boat,  man!

But any unbiased person reading this can tell you've been somewhat of a jerk by doing that.
Listen to the music, not the media.

  • old tech
  • [*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #117
Quote
How linear is the 2hz to 100khz response?
Quote
If you mean, is it flat across that band, it is; well within 1/2db, -3 db at the specified limits. The 2 Hz cutoff is defined by a coupling cap between the voltage amp and direct-coupled driver (squarewave tilt is unmeasurable at 20Hz); in our larger amps we cut it off at 1Hz. The upper limit is defined by the bandwidth of the voltage amp; we can run it higher easily but in practice this seems to be a good limit.

Specs seem very good.  Well designed tube amps can be very bit as transparent as well designed solid state amps but the question is more around virtue.  The tube amp will cost a lot more, is more inefficient and higher maintenance.  Not that this really matters as, in my experience, most audiophiles that a drawn to tube amps are seeking more of a euphonic colour rather than transparency and most high end tube amps cater to that crowd with their "signature sound" amps that depart from the objective of true high fidelity.

  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #118
Ah, you're that Atma-sphere.
Luckily I'm not one who thinks tubes are "bad".
But the cartridge comment was pretty stupid. AA elitist ignorant-dumb.
I discovered that preamp stability played a role in ticks and pops about 30 years ago.
Great, but that was still a really stupid comment about $100 cartridges on the Dunning-Kruger site.
Plus cleaning the snap, crackle, popping brand new record, had not a damn thing to do with preamps.

You may or may not know this in already, but OTLs in general are known for a high output impedance and this being one of the smaller OTLs made, is pretty high.
Like the damn rent?
Ok, so it's a special effects processor posing as an "amp". It's going to have a "sound" based on the impedance curve of the speaker system, especially multi-ways!
Nothing wrong with that if it floats yer boat in a very audiophile sort of way.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • polemon
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #119
Hmm, I wasn't aware of Audio Asylum till just now.

Pretty long time since I've seen so much butthurt about being lovers of something other people shun. Religion comes to mind...

It's pretty clear, though, that they struggle having a conversation that goes over their heads when presented with something that isn't a logical fallacy.

Here's a pretty good example:
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OK, then show me your measurements of musicality and involvement, or the lack there of!
Ref.: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1159159.html

The original poster this person responds to, provided a pretty good explanation of his argument:
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Measurements are objective and have the same meaning to everyone. Musicality and involvement are subjective and have different meanings to different people. All you have to do is find a component that sounds musical and involving to you and measure it. Then, any other component with the same exact measurements of distortion, frequency response, and phase response will sound musical and involving to you.

After all, electronic components simply reproduce an electrical waveform from a record or CD. These waveforms are easily measured. Therefore, when you find two different components that produce the same exact electrical waveforms from a record or CD, they will sound exactly the same.

The human ear is far less sensitive than electronic measurement equipment. Therefore, we can measure all sorts of distortion and other things that no human can hear. Everyone knows this. If you think you can hear frequencies that cannot be measured you're delusional. Oscilloscopes can easily measure frequencies in the megahertz region where no human ear can detect them. Spectrum analyzers can measure harmonic distortion that no human ear can hear.

I don't know why you think that musicality and involvement cannot be measured. If you can identify it, it can be measured.
Ref.: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1159201.html

There are no replies to this, pretty telling that there is simply no riposte to that.

The opening post, claims HA is in its own little bubble. While that is pretty much like saying that the comment section of each YouTube video is its own bubble, I find the statement comically ironic. I know of only a handful communities so en-bubbled as them.

Some of them claim discussions here tend to become overly vitriolic, and I think there's truth to that. Correct argumentation is one thing, but being a dick about it - when the other person is quite clueless - is also not helpful at all. If someone thinks this is a waste of time, then I'd argue it's better not to answer at all.

They seem to misunderstand quite a bit of the technology discussed here, though. It seems they're unaware, that "MP3" is not a catch-all term for lossy encoding. In one instance they talk about hiss on LPs, and discuss bit-depth. It seems they don't quite understand, that bit-depth of a sample is what defines noise on digital encoding. They seem to regularly confuse sampling rate to bit-depth, and I've read at least one account someone claiming that "converting" a signal from the time domain into the frequency domain is "lossy", which just concept-wise makes no sense.

People like Monty have made introductions which I highly recommend: https://xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml

I've come across several discussions where it essentially boils down to name-calling and fingerpointing, I'd love to see less of that.
Audio Asylum seems to be full of that, and I don't see why we should let ourselves down to that level. Either be respectful of the other, or don't answer, but fueling a fire makes no sense.

  • bennetng
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #120
I've come across several discussions where it essentially boils down to name-calling and fingerpointing, I'd love to see less of that.
Audio Asylum seems to be full of that, and I don't see why we should let ourselves down to that level. Either be respectful of the other, or don't answer, but fueling a fire makes no sense.
Totally agree.

Most long time HA members should be pretty familiar with such things right? People in Audio Asylum or similar websites should also understand the culture of HA clearly. I myself learned nothing new in this thread and there is no need to going back and forth with people in other forums in this way.

Just a little bit earlier:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114230.0.html
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114203.0.html


  • ajinfla
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Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #121
People in Audio Asylum or similar websites should also understand the culture of HA clearly.
No they shouldn't. They can't. Dunning-Krugers' study points to why.
Or in more laymans term, you can't fix stupid.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • Atmasphere
  • [*][*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #122
Quote
As @ajinfla has already said, that was pretty stupid - not to mention arrogant too.

As for the double standard, all this pretending you were engaging into serious debate here just to dutifuly report to your comrades over there makes it quite obvious what I meant, doesn't it?

Anyway, the internet is notoriously free, for you to do as you please - whatever rocks your boat,  man!

But any unbiased person reading this can tell you've been somewhat of a jerk by doing that.

You are engaging in a lot of assumptions. My quote so far seems un-refuted; I did not say all, but I am am quite convinced that many or most on this otherwise august forum use systems that those in my industry refer to as 'lofi' or 'midfi'. Are you able to prove me wrong?

Also if you look at my posts here and correlate them to my posts over there, you will not find much correlation. My motivation for posting over here is to sort out if it is possible to get people who have otherwise rejected phono technology to understand how it works and why they may not have heard it working properly. I encounter a lot of resistance- and a serious amount of personal attacks and trolling, which is the nom de plume for which this site is known. So in a way I am walking in the lion's den but as you point out, it is the internet. So I disagree with your assessments; as far as I can tell they are based on the idea that you know what is in my head, which you don't. You will also notice that I avoid the usual name-calling such as you have employed, unless pushed really hard.

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Great, but that was still a really stupid comment about $100 cartridges on the Dunning-Kruger site.
Plus cleaning the snap, crackle, popping brand new record, had not a damn thing to do with preamps.

I disagree. I've been on this site for a while and it is very specification/measurement based. Since most competent gear has good specs (Kenwood car stereo and top end Pass Labs amps do not have very different specs as an example) naturally its human nature to pay less if you don't have to. Was that a faulty assumption on my part?

Further, you seem to have consistently missed my point regarding preamps, your cleaning of your LP, and surface noise. I've made it twice now and you're still on about it- are you missing my point with intention?? It certainly appears so.

Quote
Ok, so it's a special effects processor posing as an "amp". It's going to have a "sound" based on the impedance curve of the speaker system, especially multi-ways!
Nothing wrong with that if it floats yer boat in a very audiophile sort of way.

Actually the amp is capable of being quite neutral with no 'sound' of its own at all. Like any high performance equipment, it has to be used correctly. Its also helpful to understand why it exists (which is not to act as a special effects processor). I'm happy to engage in that discussion, but it would appear to be a topic for another thread. Alternatively, we could discuss it on PM. Or derail this thread if you prefer. But as a hint, there is more to it than simple reaction to the impedance curve of the speaker. First off, no speaker is flat, second, human perception of distortion exists with tipping points in the brain wherein tonality created by distortion can take precedence over actual FR errors. Finally not all speakers are designed around the expectation that the amplifier be a perfect voltage source; despite that the expectation is that the speakers will nevertheless be neutral.

If you were to put in in a nutshell, the current SET fad (which started about 1990; not sure if 'fad' is the right word) requires that speakers not expect the amp to be a perfect voltage source (instead, they are expected to be a 'power source' as the speaker will be power driven rather than voltage driven); this amplifier is intended to go after SETs on their own turf as it is less expensive, much wider bandwidth, far more powerful, far less distortion at any power level and its quiet enough to be used on high efficiency (+100db) loudspeakers. BTW, SETs have unmeasurable distortion at low power levels and that is one reason why they are around. So the S-30 beats them up on any speaker they can drive. And because it has more power it can drive speakers that most SETs simply cannot. Once you understand those facts the amp makes more sense.

Is it bad to be an audiophile? Your use of the word seems to suggest that.

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Or in more laymans term, you can't fix stupid

You can fix ignorance, stupid is forever. Not everyone over there is ignorant, nor stupid; both are a problem in all aspects of humanity. You seem to be engaging in a bit of Dunning-Kruger yourself.

  • Wombat
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #123
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

  • Atmasphere
  • [*][*]
Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Reply #124
Quote
Still waiting.

I had forgotten about that.

What sort of format does the audio file need to be? How do you ascertain its not been tampered with? Will an audio file from my phone do the job? Otherwise I have to bring equipment from the studio which will be a pain.