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  • greynol
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #50
Chris used to post here, interestingly enough. He got yelled at for blatant site advertisement, but he had the damn good sense to leave the subjective stuff out of his posts from what I recall.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535116
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535296
  • Last Edit: 24 March, 2009, 05:24:57 PM by greynol
Your eyes cannot hear.

Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #51
This is my first post so hello to all.

Ashley


I enjoyed your posts at the CA forum.  I'm glad you'll be posting on another forum I follow.

I read the CA forum from the beginning but I never signed up or posted because I didn't feel I fit in that crowd.

Bill

  • Axon
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #52
Chris used to post here, interestingly enough. He got yelled at for blatant site advertisement, but he had the damn good sense to leave the subjective stuff out of his posts from what I recall.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535116
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535296


Ah, yes, how could I forget.

I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.

  • shenzi
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #53
Hello shenzi, and welcome.

I'm not sure what you mean by "rationalist", but to me objective means based only on what can be proven by unbiased testing, which to me is the heart and soul of HA.

Rational to me implies what the mind is willing to accept, not necessarily what the evidence shows, because what is shown by the evidence may sometimes seem irrational.



Hi - By rational I mean from logical argument based on objective evidence. That includes accepting conclusions which seem unintuitive (a lot of scientific theories fall into that category).

Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #54
Chris used to post here, interestingly enough. He got yelled at for blatant site advertisement, but he had the damn good sense to leave the subjective stuff out of his posts from what I recall.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535116
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535296


Ah, yes, how could I forget.

I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.


Audioengr in many ways shows the dangers of subjective dominance of discussions in my view. It's a tiny leap from "believing the evidence of ones ears" to justifying ones beliefs with pseudo scientific claptrap, simply because one doesn't have sufficient understanding to recognise it as such.

I reckon the audio industry is way behind the Consumer or Pro electronics industry because much of it has driven off proper engineers and discredited any rational means of assessing products.

I once saw an article about an experiment done by a University to prove the value of intuition. There was none above a random guess and that's not a good way to design a 747 or a piece of electronics IMO. It's all measurable and provable and subjectivists don't like that, they want magic.

Ash
  • Last Edit: 25 March, 2009, 08:05:45 AM by Ashley James

  • pdq
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #55
I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.

Personally I find it amusing when a forum labels its members as "Gold" or "Platinum".

  • WUXGA
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #56
I found that hilarious as well.
  • Last Edit: 26 March, 2009, 12:18:47 PM by greynol

  • tfarney
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #57
Hi folks. Another refugee from Computer Audiophile (and Head Fi) here. So Chris was blatantly self-promoting here? Who needs Shakespear for irony, huh? Think I'll go read some threads...

Tim

  • odigg
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #58
I kind of wonder if this is some kind of trend, with Head-Fi basically feeding HydrogenAudio - kind of like how Ayn Rand books tend to feed libertarianism (though the two things are very substantially different). The headphone amp market in particular is.... very curious. It's the cheapest way for the average joe to buy in to "the good life" of high fidelity - and so it's also the cheapest way for said joe to dismiss it as mostly claptrap. All jokes about Patrick82 besides, you see far, far more pro-DBT statements on Head-Fi that on virtually all other audio forums save here.


I do agree with you that the sheer extremity of claims on many audiophile sites can drive people away.  When I first got into audio, I did believe that amps could provide audibly different sound signatures. In particular, I believed NAD amps were warm.  However, when I started to read about "night and day" differences between power cables, my BS detector flared up. I got even more confused when I tried some "dedicated headphone amp required" high impedance headphones and heard no difference whatsoever with the headphones plugged straight into my sound card or through a DAC+headphone amp combo.  When I combined all this with the amount of money that would go through my hands if I believed the claims of audiophilia, I started looking for more information.  Then I learned about DBT in audio.  And well, now I'm here.


  • tfarney
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #59
Quote
Audioengr in many ways shows the dangers of subjective dominance of discussions in my view. It's a tiny leap from "believing the evidence of ones ears" to justifying ones beliefs with pseudo scientific claptrap, simply because one doesn't have sufficient understanding to recognise it as such.


Ash, my friend, if you're saying audioengr believes the evidence of his own ears, I think you're being too kind. Audiengr sells 3 foot mains cables for $1200. It's more likely he believes in the gullibility of his customer base.


Tim

Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #60
He certainly believes in himself and I think it is obvious that he's talking rubbish but people on CA were convinced and it was those who I was referring to as believing the "evidence of their ears".

In view of his track record elsewhere I'm surprised that he wasn't censored. I was for daring to suggest that in a proper comparison, it was virtually impossible to hear any differences between the top manufacturers evaluation boards and that these were designed to show DACs at their best. I don't accept that big differences occur between commercial DACs unless their manufacturers have screwed up, which is less common than it used to be.

We pay less than £2.00 for mains leads and give them away with our products. If anyone suggests an ABX test is necessary to prove they are as good as Nugent's I shall stick my head in the lavatory and keep flushing till I drown!

Ash
  • Last Edit: 26 March, 2009, 02:52:11 PM by greynol

  • hybris
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #61
Ah, yes, how could I forget.

I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.


Fantastic thread - thanks
Thorbjorn

  • tfarney
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #62
If anyone suggests an ABX test is necessary to prove they are as good as Nugent's I shall stick my head in the lavatory and keep flushing till I drown!

Ash


No, but someone might suggest an ABX test to prove that $1200 mains cables are fraud.

Tim

  • pdq
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #63
I believe someone already posted here the results of such a test that they made, but I don't have the link.

Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #64
If anyone suggests an ABX test is necessary to prove they are as good as Nugent's I shall stick my head in the lavatory and keep flushing till I drown!
It's always a good idea to clean your ears before doing a listening test

  • shakey_snake
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #65
I've been drug into a fun argument about this very subject here.
Lot of lulz inside.
elevatorladylevitateme

  • pdq
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #66
So how did Joel become a Supervisor at neowin.net (other than an obscene number of posts)?

  • shakey_snake
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #67
Not for his audio skills, obviously.
elevatorladylevitateme

  • shenzi
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #68
I believe James Randi has got involved in a cable listening test but I don't think the challenge has happened yet.

http://www.randi.org

Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #69
I believe James Randi has got involved in a cable listening test but I don't think the challenge has happened yet.

http://www.randi.org



All of the cable reviewers and manufacturers ran the other way.

No fools, they. ;-)

  • krabapple
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #70
This CD player thread appears to be a classic recent example of disproportionate subjectivist outrage at the mere idea that maybe you can't always trust your ears .  (Props to stereocentral )
  • Last Edit: 31 March, 2009, 05:04:29 PM by krabapple

  • pdq
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #71
This CD player thread appears to be a classic recent example of disproportionate subjectivist outrage at the mere idea that maybe you can't always trust your ears .  (Props to stereocentral )


"There are still a great number of people who do believe that all CD players do sound virtually the same. Many of these people also believe in the old DBT. No point arguing with them.
"


  • 2Bdecided
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #72
Quote
Differences HEARD that are huge cannot possibly be imaginary and to think that is possible only displays a complete lack of understanding
The placebo effect can genuinely, provably (measurably!) cure people of real illnesses.

How can people be so silly as to dismiss it in their listening?


Brave SiriusB - why waste your time?


As I usually say at this point, the really sad thing is how great sound reproduction would be by now if everyone embraced double-blind testing. Use your ears - just don't let them be fooled.

Cheers,
David.

  • krabapple
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #73
Quote
Differences HEARD that are huge cannot possibly be imaginary and to think that is possible only displays a complete lack of understanding
The placebo effect can genuinely, provably (measurably!) cure people of real illnesses.



usually only temporarily, if it was a 'real' illness (not psychosomatic)


Quote
How can people be so silly as to dismiss it in their listening?



Never understimate the power of denial.

  • pdq
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Subjective vs Objective opinions
Reply #74
I believe it has been shown, however, that people heal more quickly from a real illness if they are in the right frame of mind.