Quote* Vinyl records commonly (not occasionally) contain musical content (not noise or distortion) up to 23-24 kHzIf you can't hear it, it's not "musical".... It's not even sound...Without having the master tapes (or digital masters) you can't possibly know if any noise/harmonics were generated as part of the vinyl production/playback process or if they were present acoustically or generated somewhere else in the production chain. It could also be helpful to know what filtering was used ahead of the cutting lathe.
* Vinyl records commonly (not occasionally) contain musical content (not noise or distortion) up to 23-24 kHz
What do you make of this? Does this show that vinyl records include content above 20 kHz, as has now been added to the wiki (it wasn't in the wiki a while back).
I'm bumping this topic after a long break, as I forgot about the thread.I think Greynol is mainly the person editing the vinyl myths wiki entry, so hopefully he reads this. In any case, I still find the following quoted section a bit confusing and contradictory (I highlighted what I found most confusing/contradictory), and I didn't see any references to these claims (which are fairly recent). A quick Google search didn't reveal anything that backed up the claims of "common 23-24 kHz audio content at significant amplitude on vinyl records" (but a more thorough search might reveal this). I still haven't found any concrete evidence that shows that vinyl records have actual musical content to 23-24 kHz, where it is shown that the peaks above 20 kHz are actually music present on the master it was cut from, rather than just noise or distortion.Quote(from source sans formal citation)Quotetests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wearI think that it is possible to do tests where low frequency tones on vinyl retain some semblance of their original integrity over multiple playings. One problem is that the original integrity of even low frequency signals on vinyl is not that good. About a decade ago when I had clients who wanted vinyl transcribed I assembled a vinyl playback system and bought some of the best test records could find as new products and also legacy test LPs that were NOS. I don't recall ever seeing nonlinear distortion that was much below 0.2% under ideal conditions. While that may be hard to hear, by modern digital standards it is piss-poor. Things were worse as the frequencies rose. Playing test records provided technical indications of other problems that are likely to be audible, including noise and FM distortion (Jitter or if you will Flutter and Wow). There will be audible low frequency FM distortion if the record is not nearly perfectly physically flat and centered. Neither are universal absent and one or both are common. There is additional FM distortion due to the friction of the needle in the groove varying its drag as the program material changes. There is additional FM distortion that is due to the nearly universal use of offset (angled) tone arms. Note that near the end of the mainstream vinyl era a number of straight line tracking record players were sold by mainstream audo manufacurers, but as the LP became a niche product, these disappeared off of the market to a very large degree.Many cartridges have magnetic circuits that fail to be sufficiently uniform over the area where the coil or magnet travels and there will also be amplitude modulation as the magnet or coil moves about due to off center punching and records that are insufficiently flat.I have also listened to presentations by collectors of legacy audio gear who experimented with CD4 records and decoders. The presenter described assembling a modern vinyl playback system with a modern cartridge and stylus that was designed to optimize ultrasonic response. They were successful in obtaining an indication of ultrasonic carrier detection on first playing. After something like 10 playings, the indication was lost. The presenters conclusion was that the ultrasonic content had been worn off in just a few playing's. I believe that this carrier was in the range of 35 KHz. I understand that depending on stylus shape there is a phenomenon called "Pinch Effect" where the groove requires an impossibly narrow stylus to be tracked accurately because modulation causes the groove to turn which reduces its cross section as seen by the stylus in the plan view. For modern elliptical designs the frequencies where pinch effect becomes significant may be above 12-13 KHz. Pinch Effect reduces media life, causes nonlinear distortion, and reduces stylus life.As far as high frequency content goes, with a few notable exceptions almost all LPs were cut from either analog tape or digital masters.The best of the digital masters of the day generally had 48-50 KHz sample rates, so obviously content above 24-25 KHz would be impossible.The overwhelmingly most common way in the day to produce recordings and cut a lacquer involved 15 ips magnetic tape. Ultimately the high frequency band pass of these tapes was limited by the playback head gap. Making this gap smaller required precision but also increased the probability of introducing amplitude variations above 10 KHz and also drop outs or loss of useful output for brief periods. Both of these effects are easy to see using test tones and an oscilloscope, and can be audible. Drop outs of any significant duration are so audible as to ruin the work. For these reasons professional tape machines had playback heads that restricted the high frequency band pass to about 24 KHz @ - 3 dB.So a LP high frequency power bandwidth started being significantly limited in ways that were never practical to correct or compensate for above 12 or 13 KHz, and completely died above 24 or 25 KHz for lack of program material coming from the master recording, whether digital or analog.
(from source sans formal citation)Quotetests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wear
tests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wear
I'd like to see how much of the ultra high frequency content is real, rather than harmonic distortion, though a band-limited master would be the best way to check for that.
That won't be necessary. The video Porcus linked in reply #27 clearly demonstrates that vinyl is capable of preserving frequencies that extend beyond what a typical adult is capable of hearing.But if you want to, feel free. I'd like to see how much of the ultra high frequency content is real, rather than harmonic distortion, though a band-limited master would be the best way to check for that.
It isn't so much that it "looks" like stuff is preserved; it's the fact that the medium and playback chain put stuff there that didn't exist before.You could look at it like SBR in AAC.Am I saying it's all discarded and replaced with garbage? No, of course not.Thanks for doing this. Hopefully it will lead to further inquiry.If you haven't already, check out the video Porcus linked. You might also want to take a look at a dynamic spectrogram as was done in that video in addition to the spectrograph.Do you have any square waves (properly synthesized and band-limited, of course) that were pressed to vinyl?
I agree that the dynamic range of vinyl is good. But is it good enough to capture the super quiet frequencies above 20 khz?