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Topic: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs (Read 12220 times) previous topic - next topic
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DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Hello all,

I'm hoping someone can advise me on this - I need to make a decision soon whether I need to return the DAC!
I have been using a Linn Magik DS and occassionally a Benchmark DAC1 USB for quite a few years with no problems.

Yesterday, I received my new Bel Canto DAC 2.7. It's fantastic with all resolutions up to 24/96, but whenever I play a piece at 24/192, there is a quite loud crackling sound along with the music.

I have tried connections from my Moon MiND 180, Linn Majik DS and Samsung NC10 netbook (for USB), running Lubuntu with Minimserver.

Different sources generate similar errors as follows, and only the USB from the netbook, and the SPDIF from the Linn Majik are capable of playing 24/192 without problems.

Could this be simply impedance matching with some cables or does this sound like a genuine problem with the DAC? None of the SPDIF RCA cables or the AES are proper digital cables, but ironically, an old analogue XLR cable comes closest to working for the AES connection, though there is still some crackling at a much lower level with that one.

As I mentioned, everything else up to 24/96 works perfectly, and the Majik DS and Benchmark DAC1 USB never gave me any problem like this with some of the same cables.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

As a summary:-

CRACKLE WITH 24/192 audio

Moon MiND 180 > AES*
Moon MiND 180 > SPDIF
Moon MiND 180 > TOSLINK

NO CRACKLE WITH 24/192 audio

Samsung NC10 Netbook > USB
Linn Majik DS > SPDIF

LOSS OF SIGNAL
Linn Majik DS > TOSLINK

The only way I can get undistorted 24/192 audio on the AES input is to use an extra-long (about 30 foot) microphone cable. Shorter cables seem to generally create more noise than longer cables, or they just show an 'LOS' message (Loss Of Signal) on the DAC. Many of the other connections which produce crackle, also sometimes generate the 'LOS' message.

I'm wondering if the Bel Canto is just especially fussy about cable matching or have I received a faulty unit.

with thanks, Frank

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #1 –
1. Could you record these crackles, please?
2. Why the f*** you want to listen 24/96 or 24/192 music? Isn't 16/44.1 or 16/48 enough? There's Monty's article about that. I can recommend you a very good resampler: SoX resampler. If you want to know how to use it, simply enter "FAQ" on the left of the SoX's site.
sox -e float -b 32 -V4 -D gain -3 rate -v 48000 norm -1
opusenc --bitrate 128

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #2 –
Quote from: ziemek.z on
2. Why the f*** you want to listen 24/96 or 24/192 music?

Hi ziemek,

If the DAC is capable of playing a high-res format, I want it to be capable of playing that high-res format! Whether I'm convinced that it makes a difference for the listener or not is secondary in this case...but yes, I'm on the fence about high-res, especially as my hearing tops out at about 12kHz.

I could always just downsample the music using something like minimserver transcoding, but i want to be sure that I haven't bought a faulty unit.

The crackles just appear along with the music and just sound like static.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #3 –
Are all of your problems with the Moon MiND with the audio coming over your Ethernet or Wi-Fi network?

If that's the case, I suspect your network...  Either your network is "too slow" or it's bogged down with other data on the network, or maybe the computer can't pump-out "continuous" data over the network fast enough etc.    And/or, when the network transmission gets interrupted (for multitasking, etc.) the Moon MiND's buffer is too small and you get a buffer underflow and a glitch.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #4 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Are all of your problems with the Moon MiND with the audio coming over your Ethernet or Wi-Fi network?

If that's the case, I suspect your network...

Since it works perfectly with the long microphone cable with no drop-outs, crackling distortion or signal loss over the same network connection it can't be that...and of course the streaming works flawlessly through my Benchmark DAC. This is possibly purely a cable issue. Just about an hour ago, I took a SPDIF out from my SkyHD+ box, and even that just showed LOS.

Does the short microphone cable generating 'Loss of Signal' and the long microphone cable working perfectly tell us something of where the problem lies? My one-meter long Studio Connections Reference Plus digital AES cable plays on 24/192, but with the crackling distortion. Can it be that the level of distortion is related to cable length? What does this say about the impedance matching of the source, streamer and DAC?

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #5 –
Try playing locally stored files (HDD/SSD) first. If that is OK then your network connection is the cause. I had this with one notebook and wifi connection. If local playing also fails then try different DAC with 192 kHz support on the same PC.

I respect what you wrote about you wanna make sure that your unit is OK but still 16/48 or 24/48 is enough for 99,99 cases.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #6 –
The Toslink standard says 24/96 max but modern hardware can perform better.
However this requires both sender and receiver to be able to sustain this rate.
So check if Moon and Linn support this.

One should use a proper cable for SPDIF and AES but in practice short runs of analog cable work well.
Bit strange that in your case the long analog run is better.
A permanent crackle is in general a matter of bit errors and it looks like the Belcanto is the one causing this.
If the same setup works flawlessly with the Benchmark I suspect the Belcanto is a faulty unit.
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #7 –
from the user guide:
"The sonic performance of the DAC2.7 will begin to stabilize after more than 100 hours of continuous power up."
Perhaps you should just give it some time :)

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Roseval on
So check if Moon and Linn support this.

Yes - they stream fine at 24/192 into the Benchmark DAC!

Quote from: Roseval on
One should use a proper cable for SPDIF and AES but in practice short runs of analog cable work well.
Bit strange that in your case the long analog run is better.

Very odd - the dedicated 1m digital AES cable produces crackle, the long microphone cable doesn't.

Quote from: Roseval on
A permanent crackle is in general a matter of bit errors and it looks like the Belcanto is the one causing this.
If the same setup works flawlessly with the Benchmark I suspect the Belcanto is a faulty unit.

I'm thinking that's what it is too - since other resolutions work fine, I suspect the DAC is having a problem processing the data when it goes as high as 24/192. The fact that it also generates an 'LOS' signal really easily and on various inputs, various sources and various cables, makes me suspect that this particular unit is failing to deal with the highest res audio files.

jumpingjackflash5 - if I am to keep the DAC and later want to sell it, I don't want the advert to read - 'The unit is faulty for 24bit 192kHz audio'!

Kees de Visser - I wondered about that too, but I get the impression that this isn't going to go away, and I have a limited time on the returns policy, so just want to get it sorted.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #9 –
Quote
Kees de Visser - I wondered about that too, but I get the impression that this isn't going to go away, and I have a limited time on the returns policy, so just want to get it sorted.

Pretty sure he meant that facetiously and that's ok.  "Break in" - imaginary or not - has nothing to do with whether the unit functions properly. You should return it.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #10 –
Quote
Kees de Visser - I wondered about that too, but I get the impression that this isn't going to go away, and I have a limited time on the returns policy, so just want to get it sorted.

That was a joke at how ridiculous the manual is, presumably to discourage people from trying to return the unit.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #11 –
It just goes to show how completely insensible it is to purchase boutique electronics that cost a fortune.

Thousands of dollars for devices that need not cost more than $100 each to produce a transparent result?

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #12 –
Quote from: greynol on
It just goes to show how completely insensible it is to purchase boutique electronics that cost a fortune.

Thousands of dollars for devices that need not cost more than $100 each to produce a transparent result?

Agreed. My heart really goes out to the OP who is clearly trapped on the Placebophile  "Every DAC sounds different" merry-go-round.

This is a testimonial to the ignorance and utter untruth that is common among audiophiles, in the audiophile press, and on audiophile conferences.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: greynol on
It just goes to show how completely insensible it is to purchase boutique electronics that cost a fortune.

Thousands of dollars for devices that need not cost more than $100 each to produce a transparent result?

Agreed. My heart really goes out to the OP who is clearly trapped on the Placebophile  "Every DAC sounds different" merry-go-round.

This is a testimonial to the ignorance and utter untruth that is common among audiophiles, in the audiophile press, and on audiophile conferences.


Where did you get the notion that I think "Every DAC sounds different"?

Turning the question around - Do you believe that all DACs sound the same?

"Merry-go-round" - you think I've tried every DAC out there in search of audio nirvana? The Benchmark I'm replacing I've been using for about 8 years.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #14 –
And you're replacing it with something even more costly that doesn't even work properly for whatever reason (shitty design or shitty QA, your choice!)?

As it is your 8 year old DAC is already audio jewelry. But please, besides the age, what is wrong with it?

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #15 –
Quote from: greynol on
It just goes to show how completely insensible it is to purchase boutique electronics that cost a fortune.

Thousands of dollars for devices that need not cost more than $100 each to produce a transparent result?

Hi greynol,

I'm returning the Bel Canto.

Any chance you could give some advice on where I can order something that will do most of what the Bel Canto does (apart from the crackle) for a few hundred dollars - or pounds in my case. Bear in mind I don't want a box of bits that I have to kludge together - just something all built together into a single box.

I'll even forego the headphone amp if necessary and add a separate one at some point.

Do all DACs sound the same when producing the very high dynamic range of a symphony orchestra recording?

Does a DAC have an affect on whether an acoustic instrument sounds natural or like a synthesised version of it? I've had many setups where everything sounded synthetic when things got busy.

Genuinely looking for your views on these issues - please don't read this as a sarcastic reply.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #16 –
Quote from: greynol on
And you're replacing it with something even more costly that doesn't even work properly for whatever reason (shitty design or shitty QA, your choice!)?

As it is your 8 year old DAC is already audio jewelry. But please, besides the age, what is wrong with it?

I've posted some questions for you, so hopefully you'll be able to advise me to make a better choice this time round - something that isn't audio jewellery.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #17 –
Quote from: fmp on
Quote from: greynol on
It just goes to show how completely insensible it is to purchase boutique electronics that cost a fortune.

Thousands of dollars for devices that need not cost more than $100 each to produce a transparent result?

Hi greynol,

I'm returning the Bel Canto.

Any chance you could give some advice on where I can order something that will do most of what the Bel Canto does (apart from the crackle) for a few hundred dollars - or pounds in my case. Bear in mind I don't want a box of bits that I have to kludge together - just something all built together into a single box.

I'll even forego the headphone amp if necessary and add a separate one at some point.

Do all DACs sound the same when producing the very high dynamic range of a symphony orchestra recording?

Does a DAC have an affect on whether an acoustic instrument sounds natural or like a synthesised version of it? I've had many setups where everything sounded synthetic when things got busy.

Genuinely looking for your views on these issues - please don't read this as a sarcastic reply.

If you are not very picky then Asus Xonar U7 could satisfy your needs. https://www.alza.co.uk/asus-xonar-u7-d2914246.htm?o=2
If you wanna spend more then Audinst HUD-mx1 or Fostex is worth trying http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/products/HP-A4.shtml#content-1-tab-tab

Of course you have to verify the list of features/connectors you need with the particular equipment support.

Of course as written by others DAC is only one piece in your audio chain. No point in having great DAC and bad speakers.

Dynamic range you do not have to worry much about. Every DAC sold today has better SNR than CD audio.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #18 –
Thanks for your reply, jumpingjackflash5.

Music First Audio TVC (preamp) > Bel Canto Ref150S > Proac Response D1 (& BK Electronics XXL400 sub).

I listen to mostly classical. If it doesn't sound close to a natural acoustic, it doesn't work for me.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #19 –
I have personal experience with Xonar U7 and Audinst. Both sound naturally  - no "color".

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #21 –
Quote from: fmp on

Where did you get the notion that I think "Every DAC sounds different"?

Your recent posts to HA. 

To illustrate this, please tell me how you know that any of the DACs you have listened to actually sound different from each other.

Quote
Turning the question around - Do you believe that all DACs sound the same?

To a far greater extent than they sound different. 

The last time I changed a DAC in my main system, it was because the DAC was part of a BD player that I had obtained to replace my old DVD player. Ironically, I've never actually listened to that DAC because I've only ever used the HDMI outputs of the BD player. But, the reason why I moved out the DVD player had something to do with how it played BD disks. It didn't.

Quote
"Merry-go-round" - you think I've tried every DAC out there in search of audio nirvana?

Of course not every DAC, just a whole lot more than well-informed reason would lead one to change.

Quote
The Benchmark I'm replacing I've been using for about 8 years.

OK.

Why change it now?

Why did you change it way back when?




Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #22 –
Quote from: fmp on

Do all DACs sound the same when producing the very high dynamic range of a symphony orchestra recording?


As a rule, they do.

Quote
Does a DAC have an affect on whether an acoustic instrument sounds natural or like a synthesised version of it?

As a rule, no.

Quote
I've had many setups where everything sounded synthetic when things got busy.

Since human bias is so utterly convincing,  universal and pervasive. it is unlikely that it will ever be known whether the perceived difference was due to bias or actual audible differences.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #23 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: fmp on
sound close to a natural acoustic
How do you go about evaluating this, personally?

Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: fmp on
sound close to a natural acoustic
How do you go about evaluating this, personally?

By comparing, through memory, to what an orchestra sounds like at a live concert, and trying to get an acceptable approximation at home.

Re: DAC distortion on 24/192 all inputs

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: fmp on

Where did you get the notion that I think "Every DAC sounds different"?

Your recent posts to HA. 

To illustrate this, please tell me how you know that any of the DACs you have listened to actually sound different from each other.

Quote
Turning the question around - Do you believe that all DACs sound the same?

To a far greater extent than they sound different. 

The last time I changed a DAC in my main system, it was because the DAC was part of a BD player that I had obtained to replace my old DVD player. Ironically, I've never actually listened to that DAC because I've only ever used the HDMI outputs of the BD player. But, the reason why I moved out the DVD player had something to do with how it played BD disks. It didn't.

Quote
"Merry-go-round" - you think I've tried every DAC out there in search of audio nirvana?

Of course not every DAC, just a whole lot more than well-informed reason would lead one to change.

Quote
The Benchmark I'm replacing I've been using for about 8 years.

OK.

Why change it now?

Why did you change it way back when?






I agree there aren't big differences between the sounds of different DACs - differences are subtle and nuanced, but sometimes worthwhile.

The Benchmark was the first stand-alone DAC I ever bought - the Bel Canto is only the second...sorry, third - the DSPeaker Dual Core is also a DAC.

Bought the Benchmark to replace a CD player after ripping all my cds to flac.

Why change it now? Thought I might get some of those subtle & nuanced improvements with a more recent DAC with the new technology.