Quote from: KozmoNaut on 2015-11-16 11:01:53

I said I was out of this discussion, but I think it has become abundantly clear that we're arguing about personal preference here.

Yes, sighted vs blind, Studiophile believer vs informed rational. Believers prefer sighted, uncontrolled "listening" and those trump ears only testing, which are to be dismissed/ignored when they conflict with beliefs. Just like their "audiophile" cousins.

Quote from: ajinfla on 2015-11-16 13:29:36

Yes, sighted vs blind, Studiophile believer vs informed rational. Believers prefer sighted, uncontrolled "listening" and those trump ears only testing, which are to be dismissed/ignored when they conflict with beliefs. Just like their "audiophile" cousins.

No.

We can all agree that bass traps do something that changes the overall sound in a listening room, right?

...which you obviously do not.

...You don't like the result of what they do

I prefer a slightly more 'dead' room

It's kinda hard to put a credibility value on personal preference

...and as such these posts continuing to champion sighted preference ring hollow.

The paper says that about 1/3rd of the people in the test expressed a preference for a treated room.

MUSICAL TASTE AND SOPHISTICATION

This next part might seem offensive and condescending, but I assure you that's not my intent! I'm convinced that most professional recording and mixing engineers have better "learned hearing acuity" than the general population, and many probably have more refined musical taste as well. I mention "professional" listeners because I believe they have a better grasp on quality and clarity, and can more readily identify when something sounds "better" versus merely different. Many audiophiles also have very good auditory taste. Of course, taste is subjective so this is just my opinion.

When mixing music you need to hear everything as clearly as possible. If music or dialog is obscured by reflections and other room anomalies, mixes you think sound good may not sound so good later, or in your car, or on other systems. When reflections are allowed, moving your head even an inch or two changes the tonality as shown in THIS article. When listening without early reflections, imaging and frequency response are more stable versus position, making it easier to nail down a pleasing mix.

Over time mix engineers learn to appreciate things that affect clarity, and avoiding early reflections is one of these things. Mixing in a reflection-free environment also lets you hear much smaller changes in applied reverb and EQ. Even at my age (67 in 2015) I can easily hear EQ changes of half a dB at midrange frequencies through my two music systems.

How would one go about properly proving a preference for a treated room versus a bare or untreated room? Probably no one except mr. Floyd has access to a fancy moving DBT rig like his, so what would the test parameters be?

So in that sense, technically the untreated (or less treated) room is 'better' because more people preferred it. But it doesn't actually disprove the efficacy of room treatments, just that more people preferred the 'untreated' sound.

..and you've determined which 1/3 you're in how???

Oh yes, by believing, implementing and staring.
Insult calling you audiophile? Please....

I'm simply looking for acknowledgement that expressed preferences could be influenced by things other than actual quality of sound.

So, yeah, if people can't manage to do this I would prefer they not participate (or make recommendations on the subject, for that matter).

For giggles, let's see who is using the word "wrong" in the discussion...
https://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php...ghlite=%2Bwrong

I haven't placed myself into any one particular group

I have only expressed my own preferences

I call the whole notion of room "treatments" being constantly parroted as a panacea, BS.
It is almost automatic on every audio (Home and Studio) forum now, for someone, often unsolicited, to tell others that room "treatment" products are mandatory for "better" sound.
I find the evidence for the "better" sound to be lacking in vigor...and far more a sighted, expected, personal preference being expressed, despite whatever Toole, McGill et al have found. Bass "traps" being one form of "treatment", specific for LF of course.

You are very inexperienced

If you can afford it and have the space treating your room is the best thing other than getting a 40X40X40 space and not worrying about it

Quote from: beek on 2015-11-17 00:49:19

You are very inexperienced

Any more useless replies from the peanut gallery?

If you can afford it and have the space treating your room is the best thing other than getting a 40X40X40 space and not worrying about it

Quote from: greynol on 2015-11-13 22:29:53

There has been some potential for more than one topic to go sideways as of late.

Let's do it here instead, OK?

Remember this is HA.  It should be expected that all replies be subject to our TOS.

Room acoustics vary all over the place and can strongly affect sound quality. They can also be very difficult to quantify and idealize.

Any concept or parameter can be overemphasized.

Amen

You're chasing your own tail, AJ. You're arguing in circles.

What exactly are you asking about? Do acoustic treatment products (audiophile woo-woo tiny cubes glued to the walls excluded) make an audible difference? I'm pretty sure the Floyd E. Toole paper you keep linking says that they do, and that people could tell the difference in a double blind test.

Quote from: KozmoNaut on 2015-11-16 23:55:16

I haven't placed myself into any one particular group

You have repeatedly placed yourself in the "prefer treatment" group, despite never participating in a blind test.

Quote from: KozmoNaut on 2015-11-16 23:55:16

I have only expressed my own preferences

Sighted yes. You have no clue which group you would have been in the McGill test.
But perhaps this all all beyond your ability understand. A "studiophile".

The article I see AJ linking to frequently on this thread isn't by Floyd Toole.

It's:
The Practical Effects of Lateral Energy in Critical Listening Environments
Authors: King, Richard; Leonard, Brett; Sikora, Grzegorz