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Topic: How do you listen to an ABX test? (Read 357553 times) previous topic - next topic
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How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1325 –
Quote from: xnor on
jkeny, do you still not even understand why we do blind tests?


The issue is solipsism versus community.

In the end Kenny apparently only naively believes the evidence of his highly biased perceptions. His world is exactly as he naively perceives it to be. That is basically Solipsism.

It seems like every scientific principle and fact that we have shared with Keny about how comon illusions invalidate simplistic perceptions have flown over his head. His is the world of the Placebophle. I don't think he even wants to avoid these silly illusions while gathering his perceptions. For him the illusions seem to be more valuable than reliable perceptions.

What we seek and have found to a large degree is a perceptual community wherein reliable perceptions obtained under circumstances that avoid the well-known sonic illusions are shared.  This is common sense - find the stumbling blocks and avoid stumbling on them!

Whether he knows it ore not, Keny's perceptions have no value to anybody but himself, and perhaps ironically no value to even he himself. He has tried to sell audio products based on the perceived value of his inherently unreliable assertions and the assertions of the reviewers that he has engaged to help him hawk his snake oil wares. It didn't work.

What we have with our shared reliable perceptions is a world that Placebophiles can only dream of. If one of use believes that we have discovered some new knowledge about sound quality, we have agreed as to how that knowledge is to be obtained. We also have developed a means for packaging our evidence up and sharing it with each other all over the world. Thus we enjoy the ability to freely share the evidence of our ears with each other. It all is based on reliable evidence, not bullying or appeals to personal authority like it is for the world of the Placebophile.

John Keny, eat your heart out!

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1326 –
Quote from: jkeny on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: jkeny on
I see Arny just posted before me so can I highlight my errors & repeat my post

"Yes, I do see these controls being used in HA.

And it may not be possible to implement these same controls in an ABX test - without disrupting it in a negative way - I accept that now.
I initially thought it would be possible but you have convinced me that I'm most likely wrong.


You still aren't comprhending the basic message that I've been sending for weeks, Keny.

It is possible to implement the kind of controls I'm talking about without disrupting the tests, because I've done it in dozens of tests for over 15 years.

Sorry but I don't see pre-screening & pre-training as sufficient.


My methods don't rely on pre-screening and pre-training. Thanks John for admitting that you have not grasped what they are all about. Perhaps if you lowered yourself to actually try a set of ABX tests based on this methodology, you would see what you are missing. However, that logic-tight box that you seem to live in won't allow you to obtain that valuable knowledge.

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1327 –
Quote from: xnor on
@Thad: yup.

Btw, as a seller this behavior perfectly matches that of snake oil salesmen.

"I reject the science because it shows null results. But my magic bracelets work because I feel they work and so I know they work. Also look at others having similar experiences, except those who don't - I reject those anecdotes. But I know it works!"


Not, in fact, interested in any form of testing which is not hugely biased towards achieving the results that suit him. Every marketing man man knows that to get the right answers you have to ask the questions in the right way. If one goes a step further and chooses the right people, the odds are very much more in your favour. If you get to screen and train them, the world is your oyster. Or, hopefully, your customer.

The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1328 –
This thread has certainly proved how you guys are viciously biased by dogma which you call "scientific principles"

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1329 –
jkeny, c'mon, stop clowning around and come to your freaking senses.

You've demonstrated your hypocritical attitude multiple times and I think you've embarrassed yourself enough.

You hold blind testing to impossible standards but at the same time easily accept biased listening impressions that just need to agree with your mere opinion without a shred of evidence that there even are any audible differences!
There's no way to turn this around.

"I hear it when I see it."

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1330 –
I can't think of a more hypocritical attitude than that demonstrated here by those who, when they can't find a plausible reason to reject positive ABX results, resort to the final hypocrisy of calling people liars & insisting on proctoring.

It says a lot for your "scientific principles"

I don't hold ABX testing to impossible standards - just a simple one of having way of evaluating the quality/sensitivity of the test.

It would hopefully prevent the likes of Arny's lie in posting his "null result" as if it was a real test & not just him selecting randomly.

In a previous thread you guys gave away your inner motivations in saying that this approach was perfectly acceptable practise as "life was too short".

So I guess it's not surprising why you reject any test of the quality of an ABX test run

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1331 –
I still don't see your positive abx result of the same files Arny did this null result.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1332 –
Quote from: jkeny on
This thread has certainly proved how you guys are viciously biased by dogma which you call "scientific principles"


I'm viciously biased against all sorts of bullshit, especially in management and marketing. Of course, I can admit that there is some bullshit that I did not always think was bullshit.

I also am biased towards manufacturers being able to substantiate their claims, media, particular specialist media, coldly examining those claims, and buyers, even those whose hearts can still be won by the motion of a volume knob (I'm a recovering audiophile) not being complete suckers.

Quote from: jkeny on
I can't think of a more hypocritical attitude than that demonstrated here by those who, when they can't find a plausible reason to reject positive ABX results, resort to the final hypocrisy of calling people liars & insisting on proctoring.


I never called you a liar, but, as an ordinary member of the largely-subjectively-influenced, audio-buying pubiic, I would not buy anything off you. If you think that any of this has been a marketing opportunity ---of ideas, even, not necessarily of actual goods--- you are very much mistake.

That's free feedback. If you want any more its consultancy, and you have to pay for it.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1333 –
Quote from: Wombat on
I still don't see your positive abx result of the same files Arny did this null result.

So it's fine by you to lie about doing an ABX "test" by randomly guessing as long as there are no positive ABX results in evidence

Again, this reveals the lack of integrity, & "scientific principles" that permeates HA

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1334 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
I never called you a liar, but, as an ordinary member of the largely-subjectively-influenced, audio-buying pubiic, I would not buy anything off you. If you think that any of this has been a marketing opportunity ---of ideas, even, not necessarily of actual goods--- you are very much mistake.

That's free feedback. If you want any more its consultancy, and you have to pay for it.

Based on your attitude & many others here, I would not sell you or them anything.

If you think any of my posts here were about marketing you are as mistaken as Arny is in trying to slur my business

Yours & Arny's (& AJs) are the usual sorry tactics used by viciously biased people hung up on dogma

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1335 –
Quote from: jkeny on
Quote from: Wombat on
I still don't see your positive abx result of the same files Arny did this null result.

So it's fine by you to lie about doing an ABX "test" by randomly guessing as long as there are no positive ABX results in evidence

Again, this reveals the lack of integrity, & "scientific principles" that permeates HA

He didn't lie. If you think he did it wrong just do it better and not only talk.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1336 –
Quote from: jkeny on
This thread has certainly proved how you guys are viciously biased by dogma which you call "scientific principles"


Something about how well living my life and feeding my family by working in accordance with scientific principles has worked out.

IME Science is something like being trustworthy and honest - that is truly the best scam that pays off the best in the long haul.

One of the thing about scientific principles that I like is that they are self-consistent and knowable. Compare that with anti-science, which IME is neither.

Really, rarely do placebophiles agree with each other about anything.

Keny, you are a great example of that - you trust not one other person's listening tests but your own.

Thing about ABX tests Keny, is even though you have proven yourself to be incompetent to do them, many people have learned the procedures and protocols and they produce reasonably consistent results.

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1337 –
Quote from: jkeny on
It would hopefully prevent the likes of Arny's lie in posting his "null result" as if it was a real test & not just him selecting randomly


Such a thing never happened.

It is very convenient for me Mr. Keny that you have been shown here to be incapable of giving an honest & accurate account of anything I or anybody else says or does.

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1338 –
Quote from: Wombat on
Quote from: jkeny on
Quote from: Wombat on
I still don't see your positive abx result of the same files Arny did this null result.

So it's fine by you to lie about doing an ABX "test" by randomly guessing as long as there are no positive ABX results in evidence

Again, this reveals the lack of integrity, & "scientific principles" that permeates HA

He didn't lie. If you think he did it wrong just do it better and not only talk.

He posted his null "results" without any reference to the fact that he only guessed & when confronted he eventually admitted to this fact.

You don't understand the concept on lying. You don't understand why I asked for some way of "catching" these types of lies in the results & the many other unintentionally invalid results?

You are just repeating the unthinking dogma you have absorbed here & elsewhere.

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1339 –
Quote from: jkeny on
Based on your attitude & many others here, I would not sell you or them anything.


Thanks for freeing me of the moral obligation to give your claims a fair chance.

Quote
As mistaken as Arny is in trying to slur my business.


You could have provided contrary evidence any time you wanted to and put an end to my comments along those lines. AFAIK it never happened, so AFAIK they weren't slurs, they were accurate descriptions of the relevant facts.

Now Keny if you told me that you are selling DACs by the boatload and keeping that a secret to avoid the resulting tax obligations, my experience with you suggests that this might actually be true... ;-)

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1340 –
Quote from: jkeny on
You are just repeating the unthinking dogma you have absorbed here & elsewhere.

Almost funny. I am pretty much here from the beginning.
I don't need to argue with someone not being able to do abx testing for whatever reason. I do listen for differences and do abx for prove over many years and can only facepalm about these 50+ pages trying to find an excuse.
These kind of threads are such a waste of energy and time. bye, bye
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1341 –
Quote from: jkeny on
You are just repeating the unthinking dogma you have absorbed here & elsewhere.


If it were really possible to absorb enough to be competent with performing DBTs without thinking and without doing some actual work, that would be a wonderful day.

OTOH, Mr. Keny doing casual sighted audiophile evaluations really takes very little effort and preparation.

That's why "All the kids are doing them (sighted evaluations)" as you have bragged about here. You are right - bad science still rules the world of audiophilia.

I don't think there is a person alive who graduated to DBTs without a fair amount of experience with casual sighted audiophile evaluations and a few hard learning experiences. They were like lite beer - they didn't satisfy!

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1342 –
Quote from: Wombat on
Quote from: jkeny on
Quote from: Wombat on
I still don't see your positive abx result of the same files Arny did this null result.

So it's fine by you to lie about doing an ABX "test" by randomly guessing as long as there are no positive ABX results in evidence

Again, this reveals the lack of integrity, & "scientific principles" that permeates HA

He didn't lie. If you think he did it wrong just do it better and not only talk.

He didn't lie???
He went into great detail about the conditions of the test
"The comparison was of a 24/192 file titled "15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale" to a 256 kbps MP3 based on it prepared using Lame. This file happens to be exact same one that was recently the star of an AES paper that Amir has been heaping praise onto."

"The playback DAC+ headphone amp was an Asus U7 which is capable of handling 192 KHz sample rate files with good performance"

"The playback transducers were the highly regarded Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones."

All the above details & not a word about the fact that he didn't actually listen but just randomly guessed.

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1343 –
Quote from: jkeny on
This thread has certainly proved how you guys are viciously biased by dogma which you call "scientific principles"

This thread proves that Dunning and Krugers study is based on sound science. 
The fact that you continue to make what should be humiliatingly embarrassing statements like this
Quote from: jkeny on
Yes, I get better, more comprehensive results with longer term "listening"(chronic peeking)

So sighted listening reports are not trusted - they are personally verified.

As I said if I'm interested, I check it myself. So I have verified to my own satisfaction that sighted results can be correct

...without the slightest cognizance of their embarrassing infantile silliness, says it all. 
John, it's been at least 5yrs, yet you continue to chuck toys from the pram and lash out at adults for not believing you hear Santa.
We get that the other kids heard him and told you so, then you "verified" this yourself.
But adults aren't going to accept that type of infantile belief and "proof". Yet here you are on an adult site seething and lashing out at adult mentoring and methods to show you Santa isn't real, outside your and the other kids adolescent minds.

I must admit this has been providing tremendous entertainment, as your patriarch predicted:
Quote
JA - Do you see any signs of future vitality in high-end audio?

JGH - Vitality? Don't make me laugh. Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel.


cheers,

AJ

Loudspeaker manufacturer

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1344 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
That's why "All the kids are doing them (sighted evaluations)" as you have bragged about here. You are right - bad science still rules the world of audiophilia.

I don't think there is a person alive who graduated to DBTs without a fair amount of experience with casual sighted audiophile evaluations and a few hard learning experiences. They were like lite beer - they didn't satisfy!

What you fail to realise is that the world doesn't work according to your dogma, Arny & I'm not talking about the world of the audiophile.

Yes, what's patently obvious in many posts here is the disillusionment, the desperate need for security & fear of being "wrong" - you're not telling me anything new, Arny

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1345 –
Quote from: jkeny on
Quote from: Wombat on
Quote from: jkeny on
Quote from: Wombat on
I still don't see your positive abx result of the same files Arny did this null result.

So it's fine by you to lie about doing an ABX "test" by randomly guessing as long as there are no positive ABX results in evidence

Again, this reveals the lack of integrity, & "scientific principles" that permeates HA

He didn't lie. If you think he did it wrong just do it better and not only talk.

He didn't lie???
He went into great detail about the conditions of the test
"The comparison was of a 24/192 file titled "15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale" to a 256 kbps MP3 based on it prepared using Lame. This file happens to be exact same one that was recently the star of an AES paper that Amir has been heaping praise onto."

"The playback DAC+ headphone amp was an Asus U7 which is capable of handling 192 KHz sample rate files with good performance"

"The playback transducers were the highly regarded Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones."

All the above details & not a word about the fact that he didn't actually listen but just randomly guessed.


As usual, no quotes related to the overall conditions under which the above was done. Just some deceptive out-of-context quotes which is what we expect from Keny, so no harm, no foul.

I had previously said that I had tried the test many times but due to age-related degradation of my hearing, the results were substandard and not representative of a typical listener. I also said that I had accidentally deleted the ABX log from an earlier test, but I'd repeat the attempt because I was being bullied into doing so.

I should have known that Keny would, to as is is his usual practice try to take unfair advantage of my disabilities, just like he tried to take advantage of the fact that I'm on the road and separated from my tools and files for the week.

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1346 –
Quote from: jkeny on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
That's why "All the kids are doing them (sighted evaluations)" as you have bragged about here. You are right - bad science still rules the world of audiophilia.

I don't think there is a person alive who graduated to DBTs without a fair amount of experience with casual sighted audiophile evaluations and a f Keny. ew hard learning experiences. They were like lite beer - they didn't satisfy!


What you fail to realise is that the world doesn't work according to your dogma, Arny & I'm not talking about the world of the audiophile.


Please Mr. Keny do tell us what my Dogma is. Isn't it true that there is a very large volume of highly respected work that is based on audio DBTs going back to the 1950s?  Isn't it true that there is not one technical paper in a peer reviewed journal that I authored or co-authored of the many that have been published, meaning that there is no formal documentation of what my Dogma might be?

Isn't it true that this Dogma that you are referring to is the product of your overheated imagination, Mr. Keny?

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1347 –
Quote from: jkeny on
Yes, what's patently obvious in many posts here is the disillusionment, the desperate need for security & fear of being "wrong"

Quoted for truth!

How do you listen to an ABX test?

Reply #1348 –
I need to repeat this:
Quote from: xnor on
jkeny, c'mon, stop clowning around and come to your freaking senses.

You've demonstrated your hypocritical attitude multiple times and I think you've embarrassed yourself enough.

You hold blind testing to impossible standards but at the same time easily accept biased listening impressions that just need to agree with your mere opinion without a shred of evidence that there even are any audible differences!
There's no way to turn this around.



Despite your latest contradictions and trying to again divert attention to one of Arny's logs (which already has been dealt with earlier in this thread, after educating you on these things I didn't think you'd make this asinine point again) this is exactly what you do.

Selecting participants that say they can hear differences (sighted!) even during the test (A vs. B!) is not enough for your: all your audiophile friends must be lying about what they hear.... we've been there.
Even having people pass tests with known audible differences to show that the conditions and test method are fine is not enough for you.

But picking some biased sighted listening impressions that agree with your opinion is fine. Jeeeezz... get a grip.

How can you not see the level of hypocrisy and self-deception?
"I hear it when I see it."