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Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Just wanted to say the more I use Cases's simple Meier Crossfeed component, the happier I am! It's the simplest, quickest to setup, and best sounding of all the different Crossfeed components and VST plugins I have tried. I use HD600's (fed by Crookwood mastering DAC and amp) with the Crossfeed component set to 4. It's a pretty subtle change but just perfect for getting that "outside your head" feeling away, without any detrimental effect on the music. Definitely feels more like speakers, definitely sounds more natural, and definitely helps with listening fatigue.

Just wanted to plug it a bit, as I feel it's so good!

Case, would you like to talk a little bit more about exactly what it's doing? Is it just mixing some L into R and R into L (essentially just "monoing" the stereo image a bit), or are EQ and delay also involved?

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #1
You can read the theory behind this crossfeed from its author here. I can't take any credit other than turning people's work into a foobar2000 component.


Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #3
I downloaded and installed the plugin, was prompted that foobar would need to re-start, which it did, but I don't see any controls to activate or  use it. I see it in my list of installed components. The documentation page on line seems empty. How do I use it?

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #4
my guess is that it would appear on the DSP manager page in the main playback preferences.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #5
my guess is that it would appear on the DSP manager page in the main playback preferences.
I just tried this with my Beyer DT880's and found it pleasing. I'll probably do some more listening. Thanks!

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #6
my guess is that it would appear on the DSP manager page in the main playback preferences.
Thanks. From there I was able to move it from the available to active DSPs and configure the user selectable level, from 1 to 10 , but is this the normal way to use this control with no visual indicator it is active or way to control it  from the main screen? Is level 1 effectively  the same as bypassed? Sorry, I'm new to using this stuff.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #7
DSPs don't generally have UI elements, mzil. The built-in equalizer is an exception. This DSP is always altering the signal when it's in the active DSP list. If you are testing it with speakers you probably won't hear any change. Speakers already naturally do what the DSP simulates.

At level one there's only very little crossfeed between the channels and this should match the standard mode in the hardware implementation. As the level is increased the crossfeed between the channels increases linearly. I don't know how closely it matches the hardware version but it seems good enough to me. Somewhere in the half way of the level slider the effect seems very close to the strong mode samples on Meier Audio's site.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #8
Thanks Case! The more I listen the more I like it, but am finding I am gradually turning it down, started liking it on 5, then 4, and now really digging 3 and 2, just enough to get the "outside/inside your really wide head" feeling away, whilst still maintaining a nice stereo width. Psycho-acoustically it REALLY appears to throw the image forward in front of you, just like a pair of speakers. Very cool!

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #9
At level one there's only very little crossfeed between the channels


Thanks, Case. Having an actual "0" level on that slider would be nifty, where you have effectively bypassed it even though the DSP itself is still actively in the loop, much like almost all equalizers can be set to "flat" instantly (or at the very least all the sliders can be put to 0 dB gain manually) for quick, A/B comparative purposes.

Another feature request I have would be for a numerical value (option) instead of just some arbitray 1-10 scale. Say, " X dB reduction of channel separation, re. 1 kHz" even if that's perhaps actually an overly simplistic representation of what is occurring.


Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #11
...easy to Bypass or A/B by switching from "Active" to "Available" in the DSP Manager.
True, it seems to save the configuration when you do that. I don't think all DSP's do.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #12
Case, are you using the original Standard version of the Meier Crossfeed algorithm, or the Extended version, as mentioned here:

http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm

Despite what I said yesterday, it might be cool to be able to switch between them!

There also seem to be various "bass enhanced" versions discussed too:

http://headwize.com/?page_id=774

http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-feed.htm

Or are they just the same as the Extended version?

Once again thanks, this component has been truly appreciated here over the last few days!

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #13
If you are testing it with speakers you probably won't hear any change. Speakers already naturally do what the DSP simulates.


Without invoking TOS#8, I have become aware of forgetting to disable the plugin whilst "doing" a speaker listening session.

Indeed a great plugin, thank you 


Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #14
Me too, kept wondering why either Elephant no longer stopped ISPs with OS engaged, or my RME Digicheck meter had suddenly become over-sensitive to ISPs. I had of course left the Meier Crossfeed filter in for about a week of FB2K speaker listening, without realising!  Lowering the output volume digitally by about a dB cures it. Almost as bad as when you are making EQ settings for ten minutes before realising it's in Bypass...

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #15
It's the simplest, quickest to setup, and best sounding of all the different Crossfeed components and VST plugins I have tried.


As this opinion should be subjective, i add mine experience as well. The only "near-realistic" feeling of listening with speakers i could only achieve with xfeed (xnor) and VST TB Isone (J. Breebaart), Case's
component comes not even close. You've to use higher quality headphones and hours of listening of various genres to adjust them properly, but the result is uncomparable to everything else I've tried before,
IMHO. xfeed is excellent plugin, i hope xnor didn't forget it and will improve it further with more features.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #16
I didn't like the xnor one a few months back when I tried a lot of them out. Seem to remember it being very fiddly to set up. I will give it another go on your recommendation though! I do really like the simplicity and sound of Case's Meier one. Horses for courses I guess.

Why would I need to use higher quality headphones to get my current headphones (which I am very happy with and have no intention of upgrading) sounding better? That seems Bass Ackwards to me... Just sayin'!

Not tried Isone but I should as TB plugins are great and I use his Dither every day, but I remember it being a bit of pain to get VST plugins working in FB2K.

At the end of the day, the Case one does what it says on the tin, and sounds great doing it, in my humble opinion of course.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #17
As every head/ears are of different size and shape, solutions like M. Rhoades's Crossfeed, Case's plugin or BS2B with no adjustable shape of attenuated frequency spectrum of one channel mixed to another, are not universal for everybody. The two i mentioned before are capable of doing this to some degree, but you've to spend a time to setup them.
In general, better headphones with near-flat frequency response discover feeling differences between crossfeeders easier than cheap crap, but I didn't write you need one.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #18
Case, are you using the original Standard version of the Meier Crossfeed algorithm, or the Extended version, as mentioned here:

I believe it's the extended version based on what the person who converted the hardware design to C code has written. But frankly the math behind the operation isn't too clear to me.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #19
jaro1, crossfeed doesn't try to simulate speaker sound. It only fixes the unnaturally large stereo separation of headphones. Typical crossfeeds always alter the sound beyond recognition. This one doesn't.

Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #20
jaro1, crossfeed doesn't try to simulate speaker sound. It only fixes the unnaturally large stereo separation of headphones. Typical crossfeeds always alter the sound beyond recognition. This one doesn't.


A little strange explanation.. Your component mixes attenuated frequency spectrum of each channel to another one with very similar shape BS2B plugin has. Both alter the sound beyond recognition, imo.
To live up meaning of words "fixing unnaturaly large stereo separation of headphones" maybe just narrowing stereo field without mixing (izotope ozone plugin for winamp/wmp) or
mixing just attenuated but complete channel to another (skipyrich's channel mixer) should be enough. but such implementations don't work for me at all.
That is just play with meanings of words, only designs and goals/expectations of plugin developers/users is what matters here. By direct comparison of many implementations i came to conclusion,
that right "stereo speaker listening simulation" plugins with not simplified design and more setting options, give me pleasant and "near-natural" listening experience with headphones
(my head/ears/headphones!). From all fb2k plugins known to me, just xfeed after correct setup meets this for me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for all you guys/developers here at HA forum and look forward to every new creation or improvement in areas i'm interested in.

Re: Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #21
I've to strongly revise my comments favouring xfeed above Case's crossfeed. After extensive testing of various genres for couple of weeks with some full-size open ref. headphones and loudspeakers listening sessions I'm concerned to state I was completelly wrong. I was able to reach suboptimal settings on both components and the latter one was much better in every aspect (frequencies degradation, sources localization etc..).
I didn't have access to better headphones before and jumped to incorrect conclusions, what I'm sorry about.  

Re: Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #22
There you go! :) I was using HD600s all along (and still am), and in all my tests over the period of a few months back then, I found Case's Crossfeed to be the most pleasing sounding when A/Bing with the others (and I still do!) I've now reduced the setting even further and only ever use it on 1 or 2. There's a clear difference (and for the positive) with it engaged, compared to bypassed, when listening on cans. So it still works well for me and have seen no need to try anything else for a long time now. Highly recommended!

Re: Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #23
Contrary to what Case wrote few comments above, the author of software conversion presumably used the math corresponding to standard crossfeed version in this component. He doesn't have plans to change the software code to simulate extended version as he probably doesn't know the PCB layout differences with the standard version circuit.
Its a shame as there are advantages in better positioning of sources in acoustic soundstage according to Jan Meier. Laicly, according the pictures from Meier's website it doesn't look for such drastic code change (extending relative amplitude and inter-aural delay into higher frequencies), but it probably is..

Re: Case's Meier Crossfeed Component

Reply #24
Are there any plans on making a vst version of this plugin so that it can be used with jriver or any other players/audio production software supporting vst?

 
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