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Topic: Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40 (Read 16358 times) previous topic - next topic
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Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

I was told I could get male RCA to male XLR cables and plug them from my phono preamp to my DR40 to record the input. But, I can't get any sound out of the preamp going into the DR40. Can anyone explain why? I must be doing something wrong.
Basically, this is what I'm using, just a different brand: http://www.amazon.com/Seismic-Audio-SAXFRM...le+rca+male+xlr

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #1 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
male RCA to male XLR

You are going unbalanced (RCA 2-conductor) > balanced (XLR 3-conductor) which requires special care.  On p.22 of the TASCAM manual it describes how it expects the signal to arrive:


http://tascam.com/content/downloads/produc...dr-40_om_va.pdf

The internal wiring of the RCA-XLR cable is supposed to address this but maybe the cable you bought does not do so or does not do so in the way the TASCAM wants.

No promises, but you may have better luck using a cable like this: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CPR202

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
Quote from: tinpanalley on
male RCA to male XLR

You are going unbalanced (RCA 2-conductor) > balanced (XLR 3-conductor) which requires special care.  On p.22 of the TASCAM manual it describes how it expects the signal to arrive:


http://tascam.com/content/downloads/produc...dr-40_om_va.pdf

The internal wiring of the RCA-XLR cable is supposed to address this but maybe the cable you bought does not do so or does not do so in the way the TASCAM wants.

No promises, but you may have better luck using a cable like this: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CPR202

Wow, really interesting. Ok, thanks. I'll try to get the 1/4" which ironically was my first choice until someone swayed me from it because of something to do with the way 1/4" inputs are handled on the DR40.
I assume this IS doable, right?

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #3 –
Quote
I assume this IS doable, right?
It should work.  The DR40 inputs can be switched between mic & line level, and the phono preamp will put-out line level.  Generally you CAN connect an unbalanced output/signal to a balanced input.

Do you have a stereo or something you can plug the preamp into to make sure it's putting-out a signal?  Or, you can try plugging a CD or DVD player, etc., into the recorder to make sure it's working (and to confirm the connections are correct).

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #4 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
It should work.  The DR40 inputs can be switched between mic & line level, and the phono preamp will put-out line level.  Generally you CAN connect an unbalanced output/signal to a balanced input.
Do you have a stereo or something you can plug the preamp into to make sure it's putting-out a signal?  Or, you can try plugging a CD or DVD player, etc., into the recorder to make sure it's working (and to confirm the connections are correct).

The preamp is definitely working. I get a signal via the monitor (headphone) port and when sending it through my AV receiver. I'll just get a new pair of cables that end 1/4", I guess. I'll have to learn more about balanced/unbalanced outputs to figure out how to do this properly.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #5 –
By my read of the manual the DR40 won't take an unbalanced input, or at least isn't expecting it, so a simple RCA to TS phone plug won't work [maybe, or may be 6dB too low]. When they call those input jacks "combo" they mean both XLR or 1/4 inch phone plugs may be used but notice the latter must be, or at least is only specified as, the TRS variety with a hot, cold, and ground conductor just like an XLR balanced connector has.

A Rolls DI box called DB25(b) was recommended to another person asking a similar question about the DR40 here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-317632.html

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #6 –
Using a TS-plug in a TRS-input will connect the cold with ground. That is how almost all unbalanced to balanced cables that do not use transformers work.

The cable recommended by Apesbrain should work, I'd recommend that too.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #7 –
Quote from: mzil on
By my read of the manual the DR40 won't take an unbalanced input, or at least isn't expecting it, so a simple RCA to TS phone plug won't work [maybe, or may be 6dB too low]. When they call those input jacks "combo" they mean both XLR or 1/4 inch phone plugs may be used but notice the latter must be, or at least is only specified as, the TRS variety with a hot, cold, and ground conductor just like an XLR balanced connector has.

Quote from: ktf on
Using a TS-plug in a TRS-input will connect the cold with ground. That is how almost all unbalanced to balanced cables that do not use transformers work.
The cable recommended by Apesbrain should work, I'd recommend that too.

Thanks, guys. The inputs on the Zoom H4n that I returned did this easier, I think. The problem is that for 90% of my recording needs, the Tascam was the better product. Until recently, I've been going out of my USB Phono Plus preamp via USB to my laptop and recording in Audacity. But the opportunity to record to a device that could capture 24bit WAVs was really enticing so I wanted to do it that way. I'll go and pick up a 1/4" to RCA cable to try it. My big music shop here in Paris has these for really cheap. That's what we're talking about right?

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #9 –
"The DR-40 is only designed to work with balanced microphones. Do not use an unbalanced microphone with the DR-40."

Tascam DR-40 FAQ page:
http://tascam.com/product/dr-40/faqs/

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Compact Dick on
I use a similar cable with my TASCAM DR-40, except it's a 3.5mm stereo TRS jack instead of 2 RCA; it works fine. The source is a micro-cassette player.

Cool, thanks. That pretty much settles it, I think.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #12 –
Let us know how it turns out.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #13 –
Quote from: mzil on
"The DR-40 is only designed to work with balanced microphones. Do not use an unbalanced microphone with the DR-40."
But, we aren't talking about an unbalanced microphone.  We are talking about an unbalance line-level connection with a signal level maybe 100 times that of a mic.

Quote
Until recently, I've been going out of my USB Phono Plus preamp via USB to my laptop and recording in Audacity. But the opportunity to record to a device that could capture 24bit WAVs was really enticing so I wanted to do it that way.
Seemed like a good idea at the time, eh?    It may not be worth the trouble unless you were having quality problems with the old setup.      16-bits is more than enough for analog vinyl.    The vinyl surface noise is much higher than 16-bit quantization noise (which is inaudible under any normal-reasonable listening conditions).  The vinyl noise also means you get something less than 16 bits of usable "resolution".

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #14 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
The problem is that for 90% of my recording needs, the Tascam was the better product. Until recently, I've been going out of my USB Phono Plus preamp via USB to my laptop and recording in Audacity. But the opportunity to record to a device that could capture 24bit WAVs was really enticing so I wanted to do it that way.

I agree with DVDDoug. 16-bit/44.1 kHz is already overkill for vinyl sources, as it delivers ~96 dB dynamic range (~120 dB with the addition of shaped dither) and fairly flat frequency response to ~20.5 kHz.

A greater bit-depth [24-bit] might be useful if you intend to perform a lot of editing, mixing, etc. Otherwise, it's a waste of space.

A higher sampling rate will only capture frequencies that are beyond 20.5 kHz. These are well beyond most humans' hearing (and most speakers') capabilities.

If you're truly interested in finding out more, here are a couple of fascinating, accessible and enjoyable videos presented by our very own xiphmont:

Xiph.Org - A Digital Media Primer For Geeks (episode 1)

Xiph.Org - Digital Show & Tell (episode 2)

Cheers

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #15 –
Thanks guys, lots of great info and a great chat.
Quote from: DVDdoug on
But, we aren't talking about an unbalanced microphone.  We are talking about an unbalance line-level connection with a signal level maybe 100 times that of a mic.
I was gonna say exactly that but I wasn't sure whether I was right. My level of knowledge of the electronics surrounding this setup isn't yet as strong as I'd like so I erred on the side of caution.
Quote
Seemed like a good idea at the time, eh?    It may not be worth the trouble unless you were having quality problems with the old setup.      16-bits is more than enough for analog vinyl.    The vinyl surface noise is much higher than 16-bit quantization noise (which is inaudible under any normal-reasonable listening conditions).  The vinyl noise also means you get something less than 16 bits of usable "resolution".
True on all counts except for one thing... People who don't capture or listen to a lot of vinyl always assume (forgive me if this isn't what you're thinking) that the desire is to capture the audio to turn it into CD quality sound. It's not for me. It's to capture the most faithful reproduction of the sound possible. I do the same with 78s. This idea is the reason that companies that know how to properly capture 78s are so rare and why so so few of them are worth buying. They all want to wipe out the sound created by the process of picking up vibrations with a stylus. On 78s, if you do that, it renders them muffled, muddy, phased to ridiculous levels and dead. Unfortunately that's what most CDs of 78 material sound like. Owning a phonograph and several 78s I can assure you that is NOT how they sound live and mine aren't even in perfect condition like the ones used for creating those CDs.
Quote from: Compact Dick on
A greater bit-depth [24-bit] might be useful if you intend to perform a lot of editing, mixing, etc. Otherwise, it's a waste of space...If you're truly interested in finding out more, here are a couple of fascinating, accessible and enjoyable videos presented by our very own xiphmont:
Xiph.Org - A Digital Media Primer For Geeks (episode 1)
Xiph.Org - Digital Show & Tell (episode 2)
Cheers
The process I go through with vinyl and shellac recordings (and this is all on a very home studio level, not at all by UCLA-Film-Restoration-type standards) is to remove clicks and pops that have come to the surface with age, and then a very light noise removal to minimize, not eliminate, surface stylus friction and motor rumble. Why? Because, and this is where I differ from the typical vinyl capture enthusiast, I WANT the records to sound like themselves. If I wanted CDs, cleaning vinyl to get it to sound like a CD would be silly when you could buy the CD. Now, in certain instances (sometimes in SEVERAL instances) we have yet to get a mastering of some recordings that is done properly and we're all living with the horrible mid-1980s mastering from before the time when people knew what to do to make masters sound good on CD. And in that case to me a little vinyl noise is preferable to a badly mastered CD. Pop vocals from 1940 - 1960 were particularly badly handled in their first CD iterations and for the most part remain so today. So, back to the topic at hand, after I do this, I then dither and compress to FLAC at 16-44 which is why I like to start my capture at 24bit. Unless it's a special record, I then discard the original 24 bit rip so space has never been an issue. I also get the music for my independent film work from my cleaned up vinyl so I do need a certain "broadcast quality" for the times when I screen in venues with proper sound systems.
PS, thanks for the videos, but it's a bit funny because those videos have probably been written more about, more disected, more refuted, more despised in the vinyl community than any other video on Youtube. Not that I personally feel that way because quite frankly, I don't care and I think everyone should get to express their opinions as long as they're not hurting anyone. But one thing I do have no problem sharing about the videos is that the guy in them couldn't POSSIBLY be more smug and condescending in his delivery which has not, shall we say, endeared him to the community of people he seems so eager to debunk. I don't get affected at all by people's bad attitudes. It pretty much rolls off my back, but this guy's videos have a way of feeling like, "You know how you think 'X' is true? Well, let me tell you why you're an idiot." He comes off like the nerdy kid in class who several years later is successful and has decided to stick it to everyone in life to make up for being an outcast in high school. I was that same nerdy kid, I just don't need to make others feel like I know more than them.

Thanks guys, great help here and great opinions. I'm picking up that cable today to try this out. Although one thing I like about using USB to capture is the no feedback or noise from the cable.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #16 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
Thanks guys, lots of great info and a great chat.
Quote from: DVDdoug on
But, we aren't talking about an unbalanced microphone.  We are talking about an unbalance line-level connection with a signal level maybe 100 times that of a mic.
I was gonna say exactly that but I wasn't sure whether I was right. My level of knowledge of the electronics surrounding this setup isn't yet as strong as I'd like so I erred on the side of caution.
Quote
Seemed like a good idea at the time, eh?    It may not be worth the trouble unless you were having quality problems with the old setup.      16-bits is more than enough for analog vinyl.    The vinyl surface noise is much higher than 16-bit quantization noise (which is inaudible under any normal-reasonable listening conditions).  The vinyl noise also means you get something less than 16 bits of usable "resolution".
True on all counts except for one thing... People who don't capture or listen to a lot of vinyl always assume (forgive me if this isn't what you're thinking) that the desire is to capture the audio to turn it into CD quality sound. It's not for me. It's to capture the most faithful reproduction of the sound possible. I do the same with 78s. .


That's just it, properly transcribing vinyl and shellac into CDs is practically the same as capturing the most faithful reproduction of the sound that is possible.  The reason why there are so many recordings on CD of vinyl and shellac that sound bad is that the basic vinyl and shellac media has what are by modern standards grievous, nearly insurmountable technical flaws.

Don't think for a second that you are the first or only person that has thought that capturing vinyl and shellac to megabits per sample and gigasamples per second would be some kind of a solution to the technical problems that are inherent in the media that you are trying to capture. It's not a magic bullet. Its not even a slightly improved bullet.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Don't think for a second that you are the first or only person that has thought that capturing vinyl and shellac to megabits per sample and gigasamples per second would be some kind of a solution to the technical problems that are inherent in the media that you are trying to capture. It's not a magic bullet. Its not even a slightly improved bullet.

I'm not. I'm actually not even thinking that intensely about it. I'm simply trying to get it into digital format so it's more accessible. Along the way, I'm using very basic tools to eliminate what I think is superfluous noise. I was told many times when I began this years ago that starting with the highest bitrate and quality possible was best for doing any kind of editing to the sound files. Even if the quality is what people refer to as crap by comparison, then that's what I'm capturing. It bugs me a bit that the world always has to be a) ignore anything hard to find or play because it sucks or b) if you're going to do any capturing that isn't perfect, it's a waste of time.
That's all I'm doing. The whole thing of trying to somehow find a solution to technical problems couldn't be further from my intention. In fact, the idea hadn't even occurred to me. This is about pleasing my own ears and protecting and enjoying my collection.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #18 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
The process I go through with vinyl and shellac recordings (and this is all on a very home studio level, not at all by UCLA-Film-Restoration-type standards) is to remove clicks and pops that have come to the surface with age, and then a very light noise removal to minimize, not eliminate, surface stylus friction and motor rumble. Why? Because, and this is where I differ from the typical vinyl capture enthusiast, I WANT the records to sound like themselves.

Thank you for a comprehensive, well-written reply. I hope my post wasn't misinterpreted as being condescending; it was only meant to inform, and I made no assumptions about your existing knowledge. You clearly know what you're doing; furthermore, I applaud your philosophy of preserving the audio medium's character  It's a pertinent point, as the low-level imperfections are what differentiate the transfer from a CD.

Choosing 24-bit is also a good choice since you're processing it before preparing the final FLACs. My DR-40 has been doing quite well at all settings between 16/44.1 and 24/96, and I'm sure yours will easily prove its mettle.

Do let us know how the transfers come along. Cheers!

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #19 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Don't think for a second that you are the first or only person that has thought that capturing vinyl and shellac to megabits per sample and gigasamples per second would be some kind of a solution to the technical problems that are inherent in the media that you are trying to capture. It's not a magic bullet. Its not even a slightly improved bullet.

I'm not. I'm actually not even thinking that intensely about it. I'm simply trying to get it into digital format so it's more accessible. Along the way, I'm using very basic tools to eliminate what I think is superfluous noise. I was told many times when I began this years ago that starting with the highest bitrate and quality possible was best for doing any kind of editing to the sound files. Even if the quality is what people refer to as crap by comparison, then that's what I'm capturing. It bugs me a bit that the world always has to be a) ignore anything hard to find or play because it sucks or b) if you're going to do any capturing that isn't perfect, it's a waste of time.
That's all I'm doing. The whole thing of trying to somehow find a solution to technical problems couldn't be further from my intention. In fact, the idea hadn't even occurred to me. This is about pleasing my own ears and protecting and enjoying my collection.

Do you use a purpose-built mono cartridge?

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #20 –
Quote
True on all counts except for one thing... People who don't capture or listen to a lot of vinyl always assume (forgive me if this isn't what you're thinking) that the desire is to capture the audio to turn it into CD quality sound. It's not for me. It's to capture the most faithful reproduction of the sound possible.
16-bits can faithfully capture anything on an analog record.

Quote
Choosing 24-bit is also a good choice since you're processing it before preparing the final FLACs.
24-bits is a fine choice, but it's no better than 16-bits.    Apparently tinpanalley has a working 16-bit setup, and his DR-40 setup wasn't working.  In this case, the working 16-bit setup is much better than the non-working 24-bit setup.  It may not be worth the trouble of finding cables that work with the recorder, and I assume there is an extra step of transferring files from the recorder to the computer. 

Virtually every audio editor works at 32-bit  floating-point (or sometimes 64-bits) internally, so the any processing is done in floating-point no matter what you feed-in.    It's "easier" to do DSP in floating point, and with floating-point you can go over 0dB without clipping (as long as you reduce the level before saving in an integer format).

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #21 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
I'm picking up that cable today to try this out. Although one thing I like about using USB to capture is the no feedback or noise from the cable.


When using this new, unbalanced line level connection you notice that when recording silence, say when the stylus is lifted off the record surface, there is a faint, repetitive background noise that sounds like a helicopter, then we will know that the reason Tascam does not specify the DR-40 as taking unbalanced line level/mic connections, in either the brochures or the manual, and specifically advises against using unbalanced mics on their FAQ page due to this noise, actually applies to any kind of unbalanced input, not just mic level.

Thanks in advance for letting us know the results.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #22 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
PS, thanks for the videos, but it's a bit funny because those videos have probably been written more about, more disected, more refuted, more despised in the vinyl community than any other video on Youtube. Not that I personally feel that way because quite frankly, I don't care and I think everyone should get to express their opinions as long as they're not hurting anyone. But one thing I do have no problem sharing about the videos is that the guy in them couldn't POSSIBLY be more smug and condescending in his delivery which has not, shall we say, endeared him to the community of people he seems so eager to debunk.
But nothing could endear someone bringing that message to that community.

(I could make a comparison with Richard Dawkins, but it might be misinterpreted.)

I haven't seen Monty refuted properly. You can make a technical argument that 60kHz 20-bit would be sensible, but that's a long way from proving that 16/44.1 creates an audible problem for most music that anyone ever recorded or listened to.


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The reason why there are so many recordings on CD of vinyl and shellac that sound bad is that the basic vinyl and shellac media has what are by modern standards grievous, nearly insurmountable technical flaws.
It's because all but the very best audio restoration engineers totally over-use the noise reduction tools they have available. I would recommend Past Perfect, who often do a better job than just about anyone else when transferring 78s to CD. I also find it's helpful to search the Steve Hoffman music forums for discussion of which re-mastering is better. Not all the discussions there are sensible, but most of the ones relating to which CD-re-release sounds best are helpful.

Cheers,
David.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #23 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
But one thing I do have no problem sharing about the videos is that the guy in them couldn't POSSIBLY be more smug and condescending in his delivery which has not, shall we say, endeared him to the community of people he seems so eager to debunk. I don't get affected at all by people's bad attitudes. It pretty much rolls off my back, but this guy's videos have a way of feeling like, "You know how you think 'X' is true? Well, let me tell you why you're an idiot." He comes off like the nerdy kid in class who several years later is successful and has decided to stick it to everyone in life to make up for being an outcast in high school. I was that same nerdy kid, I just don't need to make others feel like I know more than them.

I don't get this impression at all. Quite the contrary; I don't see how he could have been any more polite and sincere. I certainly don't detect anything insulting, he's just explaining something that many people think they understand but don't because of the general glut of misinformation out there about it. People often get so invested in believing there's something special about analog, sometimes ascribing to it essentially magical capabilities, that I guess some feel offended when they're told magic isn't real. I don't know the reason for your feelings in particular, but I think it's a safe bet that a very large portion of the offense taken in the vinyl community is because they feel threatened.

Vinyl recording question with a TASCAM DR40

Reply #24 –
I don't get that impression either. People who read AES papers, for instance, are not the the target audience. Rather, people like me, who cannot get beyond the first equation in those papers, are its target and,
Quote
You know how you think 'X' is true? Well, let me tell you why you're an idiot.


Works for me! 

The only criticism I have heard of his videos that might be true is that some things might be oversimplified beyond strict accuracy, but I'm happy to accept that this is sometimes a necessary part of the learning/teaching process, as in "You know how you learnt a-b-c last year? Well, this year, we're going to learn how a-b-c might be fine at that level, but, going deeper, it isn't actually true." Seems to me that life, let alone science and maths, is like that.

The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain