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Topic: Loudness war: U2 sets an example? (Read 25048 times) previous topic - next topic
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Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

The new U2 album can be downloaded for free from iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/nl/album/songs-of-...nce/id915794155

I downloaded it, because, well, it is free. Anyway, I noticed something special. I checked the dynamic range and replaygain using Foobar2000 out of interest. U2 have been big Loudness War offenders on the last couple of albums so I was curious if it got even worse on this one. To my surprise I found that the album measures Replaygain -6.51 and DR9. Those are highly unusual values for a modern rock album nowadays!

Does U2 want to set an example here? That would be great.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #1 –
Not as high profile band but Opeth's new album is even lower than that! And they're a metal band

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #2 –
Report similar phenomena even with Minimal Techno.

So far mainly the more established and confident artists (i.e. Jeff Mills) but it seems to be catching on.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: probedb on
Not as high profile band but Opeth's new album is even lower than that! And they're a metal band


I'd call them more prog rock than metal nowadays, but I completely agree that their latest album is unusually well-mastered.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #4 –
At the end of this productionadvice article several big name artists are mentioned whose recent records are quiet. Having listened to some of those, they sound good indeed.

Fwiw, David Gilmour's latest album from 2006, though I wasn't necessarily impressed by it, was very quiet, especially considering the era it came out into.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
Quote from: probedb on
Not as high profile band but Opeth's new album is even lower than that! And they're a metal band

I'd call them more prog rock than metal nowadays, but I completely agree that their latest album is unusually well-mastered.

Mikael said in an interview that he got tired of the metal genre with its "typewriter-sounding bass drums". It sounds funny because it's true. Not that Opeth didn't already have good mixing/mastering before the direction change.
Speaking of heavy bands, I think Queens of the Stone Age always sounded good.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Hex144 on
Speaking of heavy bands, I think Queens of the Stone Age always sounded good.

Really? I think QOTSA sounds way too compressed with no dynamics at all. For example, "No one knows" is Replaygain -11.14 dB and DR4 (!). Way too squashed for me and I think it is such a shame, because it could sound so much better if only they left a bit more dynamics in mastering...

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: bug80 on
To my surprise I found that the album measures Replaygain -6.51 and DR9. Those are highly unusual values for a modern rock album nowadays!

No question it's a step in the right direction, but a RG of -6.5 is still too loud. For example, it's marginally louder than the Page/Marino 1991 Zeppelin remasters, which in my book are still a bit too compressed, even for heavy rock.

Rock CDs that sound really good tend to have RG around the -2 level (after peak normalisation).

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: bug80 on
Really? I think QOTSA sounds way too compressed with no dynamics at all.

OK, looks like you are right about that. I think maybe there's just something about the guitar and drums tone / EQ which I like.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: bug80 on
Does U2 want to set an example here? That would be great.

I mean, they're not selling the album to consumers. It's my understanding that commercial pressure is a critical part of the story when trying to rationalize the loudness war.


Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
So far mainly the more established and confident artists (i.e. Jeff Mills) but it seems to be catching on.

Really? Which releases are you thinking about? The Mills stuff I've heard lately (on Axis and Purpose Maker) is still as squashed as it's been for a long time...

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #10 –
I am sure that there is no trend it's just random. Daft Punk does sound good.

I had to install and uninstall ten programs to get that U2 album because I like them too. Fucking Apple.
FLAC -> JDS Labs ODAC/O2 -> Sennheiser HD 650 (equalized)

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #11 –
Quote
Which releases are you thinking about?


The last one I bought was

The Drummer - Mouzon TG -3.73, TP 0.961537

Not great by non minimal standards but comapre it to the classic

Step to Enchantment : TG -11.93, TG 1.126362

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Hex144 on
OK, looks like you are right about that. I think maybe there's just something about the guitar and drums tone / EQ which I like.


Nothing wrong with liking what you like. Listen to some Boris or similar if you want to see some ridiculously high RG numbers

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #13 –
Quote
I mean, they're not selling the album to consumers. It's my understanding that commercial pressure is a critical part of the story when trying to rationalize the loudness war.
That's true.  ...They are selling to Apple!    But, I assume they want listeners to enjoy the music.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #15 –
I am more interested to know if despite the RG value -6.5, Does this album or other recent 'quieter albums' have dynamics ?
I have many louder albums but with softer / subtle intros, outros..


Simply returning to better RG values while boosting everything to be heard in outdoor situations (like a radio stations use DSP) doesn't cut it IMO.  Its even worse in a way.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: shadowking on
I am more interested to know if despite the RG value -6.5, Does this album or other recent 'quieter albums' have dynamics ?
I have many louder albums but with softer / subtle intros, outros..


Simply returning to better RG values while boosting everything to be heard in outdoor situations (like a radio stations use DSP) doesn't cut it IMO.  Its even worse in a way.

Yeah, both RG and DR are more or less measures of "short term" dynamics. They both work in short time frames and only consider the top X% values. So the dynamics you are talking about are not really taken into account.

For me RG and DR say more about the "punch" the sound of a record will have rather than the "overall" dynamics.

The overall dynamics of this new U2 record are not really different from other rock albums. But you could listen for yourself of course, since it's free.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #17 –
It is perhaps worth pointing out that until about 15 years ago, you would have to look hard to find an album, even of this genre, with such a low dynamic range.

P.S.  Are the media reports of everyone getting the U2 album shoved on to their phones really accurate (non-iTunes user here)?

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: lithopsian on
It is perhaps worth pointing out that until about 15 years ago, you would have to look hard to find an album, even of this genre, with such a low dynamic range.

P.S.  Are the media reports of everyone getting the U2 album shoved on to their phones really accurate (non-iTunes user here)?

There was something about it on the radio this morning - apparently you get the album whether you want it or not. Some folks on the internet - the kind who need to make a fuss about everything in order to somehow validate their existence - are complaining. Just delete the damn thing if you don't like U2. It's hardly an outrage.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: lithopsian on
P.S.  Are the media reports of everyone getting the U2 album shoved on to their phones really accurate (non-iTunes user here)?


It's not quite that bad.  It's only showing up in iTunes libraries and on iOS devices of people who have it set so that both automatically download purchased content.  The U2 album is automatically showing up because it is marked at "Purchased" for every Apple ID, it's not like how other free content has to be manually initiated.  So, for some people, it's showing up "on its own."  It seems like most people will complain about anything now.  Oh no, a free album which would take me 2 seconds to delete has showed up on my device.  Boo hoo, go away free stuff!

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #20 –
The album got added to every iTunes account automatically as a "purchase". As a consequence of this, anyone with an Apple device now has the album showing in their collection, whether they wanted it or not. It shows up either as streaming tracks or gets automatically downloaded if you've set your device to automatically download your music collection.

The annoying part is that you can't just delete it. Even if you delete any local copies of the tracks, they still show up as streaming tracks. And you can't delete or even hide them from the iTunes store on the device. You have to install iTunes on a PC/Mac and figure out that program first, before you discover where you can hide it. Even then, it doesn't necessarily disappear, in some cases you have to hide the purchase and then download the album completely and delete it again before it stops showing up.

It's a study in frustration and foisting crap on people even though they don't want it. And it's a stark reminder that you may own your iPad or iPod, but you're still under Apple's thumb when it comes to content or even the files on your device.

And it's not even a very good album, even by the very low standards of U2. Sound quality is OK (as per the subject of this thread), but musically it's just mindless filler.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
It's a study in frustration and foisting crap on people even though they don't want it. And it's a stark reminder that you may own your iPad or iPod, but you're still under Apple's thumb when it comes to content or even the files on your device.


I think the whole thing is being blown way out of proportion.  It's a free album that can eventually be removed from your account.  Odds are high that people with an iOS device have iTunes installed on their systems as well.  I fail to see it as anything more than Apple paying for a U2 album and giving it to everyone with an Apple ID.  I also don't see how it is a reminder that Apple is the provider of content for an iPad or iPod.  Apps?  Well, you do have to connect through their service to download them.  Movies, music, and eBooks?  Hardly.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #22 –
So this is where the music industry is going.
"Free" but you can only listen to it or download it using Apple software.... No thanks.

Their last good album was the Joshua Tree. So, nevermind. 

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #23 –
@nastea:  In fact, no. That's not what this is for.

In a local news yesterday it was said that out of the top 10 selling songs on iTunes these last couple of weeks there were up to 6 U2 songs. Songs of older albums, which one has to pay.
Not only that, but this album is not to remain free, but will start selling on the 18th (if i remember the number correctly).

Basically, this has been like a massive preview and publicity in order to be mainstream again.

Loudness war: U2 sets an example?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on

@nastea:  In fact, no. That's not what this is for.

In a local news yesterday it was said that out of the top 10 selling songs on iTunes these last couple of weeks there were up to 6 U2 songs. Songs of older albums, which one has to pay.
Not only that, but this album is not to remain free, but will start selling on the 18th (if i remember the number correctly).

Basically, this has been like a massive preview and publicity in order to be mainstream again.

Isn't that fixing the charts, if it is an automatic purchase for people with iTunes, whether people want it or not?