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Topic: Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata (Read 4124 times) previous topic - next topic
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Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

DISCLAIMER: An up-front apology for possibly coming across as being over-dramatic.  I've been reading for years and years and years now about people talking about this but with nothing ever coming out it, and I think it's finally starting to get to me.



Much like MP3 and AAC, it's been stated that it should be possible to edit the loudness of a vorbis audio stream directly without metadata similar to the likes of MP3Gain and AACGain (read the end of my post for my sources).  However, nobody seems to have actually made such software functionality, whether as a stand-alone program or as a feature of a pre-existing program.  All there really has been is VorbisGain, and that relies on metadata just like ReplayGain.  Maybe it's the fact that Vorbis uses 2.2dB, which is 68% more than MP3 and AAC's 1.5dB.  Or maybe people wanted push the idea of ReplayGain tags, and were trying to make them more popular.

Well it's been 10 years since VorbisGain, and while ReplayGain tags are indeed much more popular, there are still cases of other software, primarily those that are not media players, where ReplayGain tags or even metadata altogether is completely unsupported - video games are one example.  As strange as it sounds, even music-based video games like StepMania, Frets on Fire, and Phase Shift do not support ReplayGain tags; heck one developer for StepMania even stated that they have no interest in adding ReplayGain functionality because they don't believe that volume imbalance is their problem to solve:
http://www.stepmania.com/forums/showthread...reading-support


This is where Foobar2000 comes in.

Applying loudness directly to an AAC audio stream has been added to the newest version of foobar2000, v1.3.1, showing that the dev(s) are not against this kind of functionality.  Therefore, I do not believe it would be a stretch for similar functionality to be implemented for vorbis.  As of this point this seems to be the only hope in ever getting any sort of non-metadata solution to loudness adjustment for Vorbis audio, so I very much hope tdat such functionality will at least be considered (I hope so for my own sanity with 2000+ songs in StepMania, you wouldn't believe at the huge volume differences that exist)


As for details on this being possible, I reference these two posts from 2004:

Quote from: kjoonlee on
Quote from: justo mikar on

Is there a way to permanently save the replay gain changes without writing tags?  I want to be able to actually change the file, much like mp3gain will do if you choose to not write tags.

It's theoretically possible, but no tools exist for that yet.

Did you notice how mp3gain alters the volume in 1.5dB increments? If a volume-altering program for Vorbis were to appear, it would have to alter the volume in 2.2dB increments.

Volume-wise, 2.2 dB changes are a lot worse than what's possible with vorbisgain, so I doubt a tool would come out any time soon.

Quote from: SebastianG on
Quote
I don't think there is any tool like mp3gain that modifies the file and is still reversible.


For those who want to know:

Technically it is possible (for floor1-encoded Vorbis files) but its granularity is worse and is much more complicated compared to MP3. For "current" Vorbis files the gain can be adjusted with a granularity of 2.2 dB (worst case: 6,6 dB). All floor curves have to be completely re-encoded with another offset. (Just changing the first 2 Y-values of the curve does not work in all cases)

bye,
Sebastian

Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

Reply #1 –
I don't think this has anything to do with foobar2000 until someone else creates the utility you mention.
Foobar2000 can invoke a lot of code made by others. For example, the current version uses ffmpeg to decode mp3 files. Also, the following encoders are external: http://www.foobar2000.org/encoderpack

That is: fb2k supports these applications that already exist.

What you are asking for, is for fb2k to support something that - AFAIK - does not exist. You should first hope that someone will make this tool.


Quote from: Nintendo Maniac 64 on
This is where Foobar2000 comes in.


Most likely not! Foobar2000 comes in when the tool - in a suitable sense, perhaps as algorithm - is there to put into fb2k. (OK, it could in principle happen that this "someone" who first creates this tool, would first publish it as fb2k component, but that is an "only by coincidence" case.)

Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

Reply #2 –
Vorbis cannot easily have the loudness of a track changed without essentially re-encoding the track.  Obviously that is undesirable, and hence all the tools I know just create tags indicating a gain change to be applied whenever the file is played.

Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Foobar2000 comes in when the tool - in a suitable sense, perhaps as algorithm - is there to put into fb2k.

So then we're stuck with a chicken & egg problem.

Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Nintendo Maniac 64 on
Quote from: Porcus on
Foobar2000 comes in when the tool - in a suitable sense, perhaps as algorithm - is there to put into fb2k.

So then we're stuck with a chicken & egg problem.


I tried to explain to you why you got the problem wrong.  You seem to think that fb2k is even more of a miracle thing than it actually is

Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Porcus on
You seem to think that fb2k is even more of a miracle thing than it actually is

Hey, I have dreams too you know. 

Re: Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

Reply #6 –
+1 for having “apply track ReplayGain to file content” context menu option for OGG files
• Join our efforts to make Helix MP3 encoder great again
• Opus complexity & qAAC dependence on Apple is an aberration from Vorbis & Musepack breakthroughs
• Let's pray that D. Bryant improve WavPack hybrid, C. Helmrich update FSLAC, M. van Beurden teach FLAC to handle non-audio data

Re: Support for altering loudness of vorbis files without metadata

Reply #7 –
Thanks for bumping a 4 year old topic, which already answered why it was near impossible to implement.