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  • andy o
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #50
I love the video. So many famous people being bowled over it makes you believe it.

Until someone from RHCP tells you that the music is no longer destroyed. What, no longer like Californication?!

Seriously, it does make you interested. What were they hearing? Fantastic marketing.

Let's hope for some fantastic recordings.

Dave Grohl was interviewed by Marc Maron on his WTF podcast. IIRC he bought the soundboard of the studio Nirvana and other famous artists used to record. The theme about its sound was analog vs. digital although from a bit of googling he at least seems to recognize that his loud music playing has in fact affected his hearing.


i wonder who will be using kickstarter next? maybe apple need financial help for the next iphone or microsoft need funds to develop windows 9. 

There's some positive things that have come out of famous people using Kickstarter. I think the KS-produced new Veronica Mars movie is out already.

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #51
But I've spoken to a few very successful rock musicians who all seemed to be completely hands-off regarding production. More than one seriously thought dynamic range compression was the same as MP3 compression.


Oh God! No wonder them embarking on this senseless cruzade against poor old MP3 then.

Let's hope for some fantastic recordings.


You never can tell.
  • Last Edit: 12 March, 2014, 03:20:32 PM by includemeout
Listen to the music, not the media.

Do audiophools dream of gold-plated sheep?

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #52
...
Another section assures me that the difference between hi-res and well-compressed MP3 is so enormous that I'll feel it in my very soul. Yes, that was the noun employed...


I wonder which part of Plato's tripartite soul would feel the difference between hi-res and MP3. There's the Logical, the Spirited, and the Appetitive. I'm guessing it would have to be the last part. It's surely not the first part.


(can't believe it I'd missed on this)

Then audiophoolz get on a strop when we dismiss them as blindly-faithful fanatics.

If this doesn't border religious fanatism, I honestly don't know what else does.
  • Last Edit: 12 March, 2014, 04:26:19 PM by includemeout
Listen to the music, not the media.

Do audiophools dream of gold-plated sheep?

  • DVDdoug
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #53
One of the big excuses for loudness mastering that I always hear is "it's often artistic choice." But I've spoken to a few very successful rock musicians who all seemed to be completely hands-off regarding production.
Many artistic decisions are NOT made by the musician(s).  The artist usually does not have "creative control", especially in a 1st contract.  In most cases you probably don't want the artist in charge (especially if they don't know the difference between file compression and dynamic compression).  Just because you know how to make music doesn't mean you know how to make a good recording.

It could be a marketing or business-driven decision, but they are going for a particular sound and that's "art".




....There's a cool scene in Ray (the Ray Charles movie) where he's making a musical departure (I forget what the change is) and someone from the record company says he can't do it.  He quotes the section of his contract that gives him full creative control!

  • Porcus
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #54
I wonder why he even needed a kickstarter with all the celebrity endorsement.


I wonder if he ever needed Kickstarter, or if that is just a way to organize pre-sales in a way that generates extra attention.

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #55
I guess attracting everyone's attention at this early stage is his product very tour de force given that the sooner it amasses a huge following, then the more difficult it is going to be for its detractors to unmask all the hot air and 'old novelties' behind its spec sheet and dismiss it as just another attempt at snake oil peddling or at cashing in into people's desire to have the best, whatever it costs.

And what better way to do that than getting a truckload of (mostly) ageing, tinnitus-suffering music industry celebrities to back it up as the next end-all holy grail of sorts, swearing by their bibles that, "Hell, now we finally hear the difference! So, aren't you going to join our ranks and listen to it too?"
  • Last Edit: 12 March, 2014, 11:49:56 PM by includemeout
Listen to the music, not the media.

Do audiophools dream of gold-plated sheep?

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #56
...a truckload of (mostly) ageing, tinnitus-suffering music industry celebrities...



Who, perhaps, have an interest in selling yet another format to add to the half a dozen they've gauged on. A fan and his money...

  • Mach-X
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #57
A few things.
First, can people stop talking about the 'death' of cds. We've had online audio since the late 90's, iTunes since what 2001? If the audio cd were to die, it would have done so in the last 13 years. Those of us who still buy cd's nowadays aren't going to stop buying them tomorrow. Or next year. Or 2012 when they were 'supposed' to cease being sold. I'm pretty sure the market can support both. (as well as vinyl)

Second. Does the flac format have any type of drm built in? According to Wikipedia, pono is going to be a flac based music store. If so, I don't see any reason to hate on it, I am not a proponent of high resolution audio myself, but I have no issue with purchasing drm free lossless audio that hasn't been downsampled in any way. Of course if they charge the same stupid prices as hdtracks, then forget about it. No excuse for exorbitant price increases just for a few more bits.

Third. If this was really an ipod killer, wouldn't it have come out a decade ago? 

  • Maurits
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #58
Third. If this was really an ipod killer, wouldn't it have come out a decade ago? 

The iPod killer came out years ago, it's called the iPhone.
There is a hidden message in the song at approximately 4:32. If played at half speed, Waters can be heard to say, "That was pretty avant-garde, wasn't it?"

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #59
A few things.
First, can people stop talking about the 'death' of cds. We've had online audio since the late 90's, iTunes since what 2001? If the audio cd were to die, it would have done so in the last 13 years. Those of us who still buy cd's nowadays aren't going to stop buying them tomorrow. Or next year. Or 2012 when they were 'supposed' to cease being sold. I'm pretty sure the market can support both. (as well as vinyl)

Second. Does the flac format have any type of drm built in? According to Wikipedia, pono is going to be a flac based music store. If so, I don't see any reason to hate on it, I am not a proponent of high resolution audio myself, but I have no issue with purchasing drm free lossless audio that hasn't been downsampled in any way. Of course if they charge the same stupid prices as hdtracks, then forget about it. No excuse for exorbitant price increases just for a few more bits.

Third. If this was really an ipod killer, wouldn't it have come out a decade ago? 

Death of CDs? DRM?

For better understanding of this post's train of thought, could you please precise whose post precisely you're replying to?
Listen to the music, not the media.

Do audiophools dream of gold-plated sheep?

  • 2Bdecided
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #60
...a truckload of (mostly) ageing, tinnitus-suffering music industry celebrities...

Who, perhaps, have an interest in selling yet another format to add to the half a dozen they've gauged on.
Yes, when hearing the enthusiastic celebrity endorsements of the sound quality, the cynic in me wondered whether immediately before off camera they'd really been sat in Neil's car listening to great audio, or they'd just been told "you get to charge 5x as much for the music, and we take a much smaller cut of the sale price than iTunes - are you in? Now, say how nice it sounds..."

A few things.
First, can people stop talking about the 'death' of cds. We've had online audio since the late 90's, iTunes since what 2001? If the audio cd were to die, it would have done so in the last 13 years.
Tried buying a CD single recently?

Quote
Second. Does the flac format have any type of drm built in?
You can wrap anything with DRM - but the pono website says it's DRM-free.

Quote
Of course if they charge the same stupid prices as hdtracks
The pono website already list prices. Seems comparable to HDtracks.

Cheers,
David.
  • Last Edit: 13 March, 2014, 05:57:54 AM by 2Bdecided

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #61
A few things.
First, can people stop talking about the 'death' of cds.


I don't think anyone here is talking about the death of CDs unless you're referencing the Pono press release.  However, CD sales have been on a steady decline and we reached a point in February where digital downloads represented a little more than 50% of music sales in the U.S. CDs are still at a nice selling point but it's clear that the market is slowly shifting to digital distribution.  After all, the iTunes Store has been around since 2003, it has taken it 11 years to reach this point by becoming the most popular "music store" (even compared to the likes of Amazon, Target, Walmart, and Best Buy) in the U.S.

Second. Does the flac format have any type of drm built in?


FLAC doesn't and neither does Pono.  That doesn't stop a company from coming out with their own proprietary technology wrapping FLAC in DRM though.  They dropped DRM support so that, as of now, their music store will sell unprotected FLAC files.  The higher prices might not be too bad.  Not for the higher resolution, ZOMG this is much better sound quality but rather for the convenience of downloading unprotected FLAC files from home.  I would personally like to see the offerings of the Pono Music service along with their prices.  I don't believe all the celebrity endorsed hype but I am intrigued with an online store that offers DRM-free lossless.  If they can compete with HD Tracks in terms of price (an album shouldn't cost $18!), I could see using it to purchase some titles.  I am more interested in seeing how the competition (i.e. Amazon mp3 Store and iTunes Store) handles this if the Pono Music store really takes off (highly doubtful).  The only reason I continue to buy CDs it to obtain a lossless version of the tracks for digital archiving.  I open the CD, rip it once, and never open it again.  I would support an online music store that offered DRM-free lossless files at competitive prices ($9.99-$14.99).
  • Last Edit: 13 March, 2014, 08:53:20 AM by kornchild2002

  • 2Bdecided
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #62
Now being reported in mainstream media...
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertai...ay-9187151.html

Answers to most questions are already here...
http://www.ponomusic.com/#faq

Cheers,
David.

  • Hotsoup
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #63
I'm most interested to see how exactly the web storefront will differ from the likes of HDTracks, Qobuz, etc. It was stated somewhere that all the major labels are behind this so maybe the selection will be better. Still, the pricing structure...
Quote
High-resolution digital albums at Ponomusic.com are expected to cost between $14.99 -$24.99, and there may be exceptions.
...will keep my away unless they're shown to be better sounding masters. I'll keep buying used CD's for $.01 + shipping and die with my archaic optical disc format. 

  • Wombat
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #64
Yes, when hearing the enthusiastic celebrity endorsements of the sound quality, the cynic in me wondered whether immediately before off camera they'd really been sat in Neil's car listening to great audio, or they'd just been told "you get to charge 5x as much for the music, and we take a much smaller cut of the sale price than iTunes - are you in? Now, say how nice it sounds..."

No doubt this is as close to reality as it gets.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #65
It was stated somewhere that all the major labels are behind this

$urprise, $urprise!!
Listen to the music, not the media.

Do audiophools dream of gold-plated sheep?

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #66
Good old Sir Elton. Always good for a quote. Not content to have put Putin on the spot over gayness he has this to say on another matter of global importance..

Quote
Sir Elton, ...<snip>..... in a video, said: “I haven’t heard a sound like that since vinyl. It was wonderful.”



  • evereux
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #67
Good old Sir Elton. Always good for a quote. Not content to have put Putin on the spot over gayness he has this to say on another matter of global importance..

Quote
Sir Elton, ...<snip>..... in a video, said: “I haven’t heard a sound like that since vinyl. It was wonderful.”


His memories of his vinyl days maybe somewhat distorted through a cloudy white haze.
daefeatures.co.uk

  • skamp
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #68
Quote
[…] maybe they don't think [high resolution audio] matters, because producers have told them, people can't hear that! There's a lot of knowledge and misinformation about the whole thing. But, really, it's not about science, it's about listening.


Quote
I would never put on an MP3 player in my car and drive around. If I'd turn it up, it would hurt my ears, because the dynamics are so flattened out, it's like an assault!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6292ZaPD_4
  • Last Edit: 14 March, 2014, 02:06:54 PM by greynol
See my profile for measurements, tools and recommendations.

  • Mach-X
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #69
Quote
There's a lot of knowledge and misinformation

being spread
...mostly by unknowledged and misinformed people like ol' Neil here...

However I WILL give them credit for at LEAST adhering to industrys such as flac and microusb...are you listening, Apple?
  • Last Edit: 14 March, 2014, 10:02:43 AM by Mach-X

Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #70
Quote
[…] it's not about science, it's about listening.


Quote
I would never put on an MP3 player in my car and drive around. If I'd turn it up, it would hurt my ears, because the dynamics are so flattened out, it's like an assault!



I honestly fail to see how on earth a musician (regardless of how long or sucessful his carreer is) finds himself in the priviliged position to doctrinate other people that the new order now is not to take science so seriously, but trust his pinch of magic and/or abracadabra, which also seems to have miraculously improved his ageing hearing system 10-fold!

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”

? Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Last Edit: 14 March, 2014, 10:51:37 AM by includemeout
Listen to the music, not the media.

Do audiophools dream of gold-plated sheep?

  • stephan_g
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #71
Seeing the price labels on my old CDs I'm horrified at what I paid for some of them. Today, unless you're desperate to buy something when it first comes out, most CDs can be had for less than £10 soon enough, and most current pop music seems to have stabilised at £5-£6 delivered to your door.

In real terms this is a huge drop in the cost of music - I assume it's because of Napster etc (which made music free) followed by Spotify and YouTube (which made music legally free), the fact that CDs are on the way out (often downloads cost more!), and typical internet tax-avoidance pricing (compared with the legitimately taxed bricks and mortar shops that used to sell CDs).

It has to be said that those very low music prices seem to be an oddity specific to the UK, which is not exactly a place known for low living expenses otherwise. I'm blaming it on fierce competition among the gazillions of artists there. Combine the two, and you get loudness war level mastering (often using outdated brickwall limiters), sloppy studio work, and pressings done as cheaply as possible (often in Eastern Europe) and not uncommonly a bit dubious in quality. That's my experience anyway. And then I'm supposed to pay full retail over here. Well, UK import is an option these days, and usually 1/3 cheaper or so.

Contrast this with Japan, a country with what seems to be a huge music industry. CDs are a fairly expensive business over there, with full retail ranging up to about 3000 yen (that's over 21 EUR, vs. 15.99-18.99 over here), or about half that for older "value" discs. Mastering levels tend to be even higher there, but otherwise the contrast in quality could not be stronger. Very few things that I've heard were of significantly less than impeccable recording quality (some people are joking that most any garage band over there manages to sound "pro"), and while levels already were very high a decade ago and things could sound correspondingly awful, the application of better limiters has worked wonders since then. (Apparently people in Japan do have ears.) The few CDs I have imported so far all were of impeccable quality. (I tend not to do this too often, as this is no cheap fun, and if things get stuck in molasses, err, customs, you can wait for up to 4 weeks rather than 9 days or so. Patience may be a virtue but is not a particular strength of mine when it comes to buying stuff.)
Now the improvements we're hoping for have nothing to do with technology, but hinge on care, skill and talent.

Which are things that require education plus time and money.

It's a bit like the social sector (arguably just as important for society but far less publically appreciated). If people are chronically overworked and underpaid because money in the system is notoriously tight and most expenses are for personnel, eventually quality does go down, and those who have to suffer the consequences are the ones who least deserve it.
My little "blogalike":
http://stephan.win31.de/music.htm

  • Kohlrabi
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #72
I moved the initial post by frenzic and all replies to the appropriate forum (Recycle bin). Everyone, please try to stick to the topic at hand.
It's only audiophile if it's inconvenient.

  • bandpass
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #73
“It raises the consumer-level quality of music to where it was pre-1980,” says Young.

So, why didn't everyone just keep buying vinyl then? No one forced consumers to buy CDs.

Anyway, despite the subtitle of this thread, it's not actually out until October, so we (or it) will have to wait a little longer to be blown away.

  • LedHed8
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Neil Young's new iPod killer!
Reply #74
Quote
“It raises the consumer-level quality of music to where it was pre-1980,” says Young.


Yes, bring back cassettes and 8-tracks too!!      Wouldn't you love to subject the audiophool crowd to massive abx and abc/hr tests?  Oh wait, those tests would prove nothing because you can't measure what one feels in the "soul" when listening to music.