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Topic: Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard? (Read 5323 times) previous topic - next topic
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Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Is it possible to detect the Hardware Samplerate?
As many cards, or all cards i think, resample at hardware level (as well as software level if it´s in Windows and ain´t exclusive or ASIO).

Cause i would like to know what it is for my card, and set the Shared Mode to the same, to prevent resampling, or atleast resampling to different sample rates to minimize harmonic distortions etc.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #1 –
Most cards do not resample in HW. Older audigy/SB and AC97 being exceptions.

What card do you have?

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #2 –
RMAA it and see what the frequency response looks like.  If it goes out to >90% of Nyquist without looking weird, its probably not resampling.

Or if it is but has a perfect frequency response you don't have to care

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: saratoga on
RMAA it and see what the frequency response looks like.  If it goes out to >90% of Nyquist without looking weird, its probably not resampling.

Or if it is but has a perfect frequency response you don't have to care


Okay will have to do that.

Btw, if you set Shared Mode to 16bit, do you get noise, even when nothing is playing?

I get it, and my conclusion is that something is going on, i am guessing resampling, as a fast resampler at 16bit will add noticeable noise compared to 24bit where it´s so low it´s pretty much gone.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: phofman on
Most cards do not resample in HW. Older audigy/SB and AC97 being exceptions.

What card do you have?


Really? hmm, well that´s good.

My card is: Creative Soundblaster ZxR

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #5 –
Under Linux, run this while music is playing:

Code: [Select]
cat /proc/asound/card*/pcm*p/sub0/hw_params

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: zerowalker on
I get it, and my conclusion is that something is going on, i am guessing resampling, as a fast resampler at 16bit will add noticeable noise compared to 24bit where it´s so low it´s pretty much gone.


Nah, that just means is a crappy card.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: zerowalker on
I get it, and my conclusion is that something is going on, i am guessing resampling, as a fast resampler at 16bit will add noticeable noise compared to 24bit where it´s so low it´s pretty much gone.


Nah, that just means is a crappy card.


Well that´s weird, as it´s supposed to be very high end.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: zerowalker on
Well that´s weird, as it´s supposed to be very high end.
In audio, price and quality are only correlated in the non-audiophile range of the former.
It's only audiophile if it's inconvenient.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #9 –
The Z series of cards can run at whatever sample rate you want in shared mode up to 96khz. In Stereo direct it's 192. There's no 'noise' at idle, so the 'it's a crappy card' response was quite stupid. If there is noise there is something else wrong in the system or the card itself is faulty. The only way to avoid resampling really is to use the toslink output and set your various applications to take sole control of the card. But to be sure, you really won't hear any difference whether the card is resampling or not. This isn't 1995.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Mach-X on
The Z series of cards can run at whatever sample rate you want in shared mode up to 96khz. In Stereo direct it's 192. There's no 'noise' at idle, so the 'it's a crappy card' response was quite stupid. If there is noise there is something else wrong in the system or the card itself is faulty. The only way to avoid resampling really is to use the toslink output and set your various applications to take sole control of the card. But to be sure, you really won't hear any difference whether the card is resampling or not. This isn't 1995.


How do you know that?
Don´t really doubt you, but would like well confirmation on it just to feel safe.

And well i tried a thing now with another SoundCard i have, or well built in card.

And if i set to 16bit, all is well no noise. BUT if i start playing something, the noise activates, and is there until i stop and wait for awhile i think.
So my guess is, the soundcard is Off until something starts then it activates.

Also the noise get´s higher if i increase the volume i windows (Only on the built in, nothing happens on my SoundCard ZxR it´s the same all the time).

Could anyone try this, set to 16bit 44.1khz, have maybe 100% volume, start something, and pause it, and listen if there is nothing or if noise is there.

If i am the only one with this "problem" i am starting to get worried;S


And about Toslink, shouldn´t i be able to deny resampling by simply having music at 48khz, shared moded 48khz?
or will it resample even if it´s the same sample rate?

And yeah i know that the resampling probably is imperceptible, it´s more like, If i can prevent it, why not?
Though i don´t go as far as using ASIO etc for it, to much hassle just for music.


Oh btw, in my USB mic C03U, changing samplerate does really affect quality, done some tests and it´s very clear at certain sounds. So 44.1khz = bad, 48khz = good. And as far as i know 48khz is it´s original, so changing would cause resampling.
But then again, it´s probably the hardware is locked at that, causing bad communication with the software or something. Caused it´s very clear, and i don´t hear any difference on Sound Ouput stuff.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #11 –
I could actually record the noise using "What U Hear", the built in Stereo Mixer (Record the playback).

http://www.sendspace.com/file/z8i7fi

There is the noise, that is just me recording What U Hear (The speakers) and doing nothing, meaning it´s in "idle" or what to call it.

EDIT:

The noise differ depending on samplerate, so 44.1khz sounds more than 192khz. Though i think it´s just that the noise is in a higher frequency, as it sounds like i just tuned up the pitch or something.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #12 –
That file is damn near silent. It peaks at -80.77dB and averages at -91.06dB RMS. Are you sure that is what you intended to record?

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: skamp on
That file is damn near silent. It peaks at -80.77dB and averages at -91.06dB RMS. Are you sure that is what you intended to record?


Yes it´s low indeed, but it´s there right?
I can hear it clearly, though it´s easier if i increase the volume, but i hear it at "humane volumes" as well.

You should be able to hear it as well.

And you should get that noise (or similar) if you set to 16bit in shared mode, please try.

EDIT:

Okay maybe not "Clearly", was overreacting. But i can hear it, though if i lower my volume a bit, it goes away.
But all my files music etc are a mess so i need to change volume all the time, so not sure what is normal or not.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #14 –
If you are using headphones, and there is audible noise only if the output format is set to 16 bits, then the card probably uses digital volume and gain control (implemented in software in the Windows driver), which is not uncommon. Although 16-bit PCM has generally enough dynamic range, if the quantization happens after the volume control, then with sensitive headphones the noise floor can indeed become audible. It is less noticeable at a higher sample rate because more of the same total RMS noise is moved outside the audio band. The solution is simple: use 24-bit output format.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: stv014 on
If you are using headphones, and there is audible noise only if the output format is set to 16 bits, then the card probably uses digital volume and gain control (implemented in software in the Windows driver), which is not uncommon. Although 16-bit PCM has generally enough dynamic range, if the quantization happens after the volume control, then with sensitive headphones the noise floor can indeed become audible. It is less noticeable at a higher sample rate because more of the same total RMS noise is moved outside the audio band. The solution is simple: use 24-bit output format.


It only matters when using Shared Mode to 16bit. Playing a file in 16bit itself doesn´t do anything, i can have high volume on the file etc, the only noise i can hear is from Windows itself (Shared Mode).
So it must be some sort of quantization.

And i think i have sensitive headphones: HD 280Pro , the should be very neutral which is why i got them.

Yes a solution indeed, but i want to make sure, nothing is going on. I mean i want everything to be as it should, not just. Oh i choose 24bit, and ignore the actual problem so to speak.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: zerowalker on
Yes a solution indeed, but i want to make sure, nothing is going on. I mean i want everything to be as it should, not just. Oh i choose 24bit, and ignore the actual problem so to speak.


Well, if the noise is no longer audible at all in 24-bit format, then you can safely ignore the "problem". Note that potential sample rate conversion by Windows in shared mode is a separate issue; you can find out if there is any low quality sample rate conversion applied with loopback testing.

More on noise vs. sample rate: some sound cards (like the Asus Xonar family) have worse noise performance at some sample rates than at others. That is, the re-clocking from 24.576 MHz (for sample rates 48, 96, and 192 kHz) to 22.5792 MHz (for 44.1, 88.2, and 176.4 kHz sample rate) increases the noise floor of the DAC by 6-7 dB. Combined with the entirely digital volume and gain control, and a headphone amplifier capable of a high maximum power output, this has resulted in audible noise being reported on the Xonar Essence STX with sensitive headphones at 44.1 kHz sample rate, but not at 48 kHz. However, the Creative Sound Blaster Z cards might not have such problem, but I thought it is worth mentioning.

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: stv014 on
Quote from: zerowalker on
Yes a solution indeed, but i want to make sure, nothing is going on. I mean i want everything to be as it should, not just. Oh i choose 24bit, and ignore the actual problem so to speak.


Well, if the noise is no longer audible at all in 24-bit format, then you can safely ignore the "problem". Note that potential sample rate conversion by Windows in shared mode is a separate issue; you can find out if there is any low quality sample rate conversion applied with loopback testing.

More on noise vs. sample rate: some sound cards (like the Asus Xonar family) have worse noise performance at some sample rates than at others. That is, the re-clocking from 24.576 MHz (for sample rates 48, 96, and 192 kHz) to 22.5792 MHz (for 44.1, 88.2, and 176.4 kHz sample rate) increases the noise floor of the DAC by 6-7 dB. Combined with the entirely digital volume and gain control, and a headphone amplifier capable of a high maximum power output, this has resulted in audible noise being reported on the Xonar Essence STX with sensitive headphones at 44.1 kHz sample rate, but not at 48 kHz. However, the Creative Sound Blaster Z cards might not have such problem, but I thought it is worth mentioning.


Alright, but what concerns me is that only i hear the noise, and non other here hear it, or has it.
It feels weird that i get it on more than 1 soundcard, and no one else has it, my conclusion is that something is wrong somewhere.

How can i detect that?
I will use RMA as suggested before, just need to see if i have a cable, as i would need to use RCA for input and output, as i don´t use the Headphone, as the implemented Amplifier isn´t as good as the extrenal one i have, and it has a high Ohm value which will cause some problems with sound after learning about it.

But please tell me how to check it, as i would love to use the best settings possible and learn the bottlenecks of the card to prevent accidental use of them.

Oh and also. Don´t think i got an answer on this before, What is the preferred Samplerate to use, is it the same as the music i am playing, or should i simply use the highest possible?
Cause i usually use 48khz cause most of the stuff i listen to are at that samplerate, others are 44.1, nothing is above it at least.
 

Detect Hardware Samplerate on SoundCard?

Reply #18 –
Here is some RMAA tests i did, i used MME on both recording/playback, not sure what that is though.
ASIO didn´t work, else i would have used it.